Canadian Heritage Committee on May 23rd, 2024

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Kevin Waugh]

Thank you.

Could I have a show of hands? Those who want—

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

I'm sorry. This is just a quick point.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

Mr. Lawrence, go ahead.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Do we have the officials here for Bill C-316 and for the estimates?

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Kevin Waugh]

Everybody is available.

Mr. Noormohamed, do you have your hand up again?

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

I was just going to say that we have the minister here for the hour. As unorthodox as it may be for this committee, why don't we get through the hour with the minister and see where we are at that point? Do we have questions for the officials on the main estimates? If we don't, then we can move on to Bill C-316. However, my understanding, just to be clear, is that the initial....

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Kevin Waugh]

Okay, so we'll do the first hour.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

We're agreeable.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Kevin Waugh]

We're agreed to the first hour.

We're going to welcome, as expected, the Honourable Pascale St-Onge, Minister of Canadian Heritage. We have, as expected, the Department of Canadian Heritage. Welcome, Isabelle Mondou, deputy minister; and Thomas Owen Ripley, associate assistant deputy minister.

Minister St-Onge, you have five minutes for your opening statement.

[Pascale St-Onge, Liberal, Minister of Canadian Heritage]

Thank you very much.

Thank you, esteemed colleagues, for inviting me once again today, this time to speak to the Main Estimates 2024–2025. I want to thank Isabelle Mondou, deputy minister of Canadian Heritage, and Thomas Owen Ripley, associate assistant deputy minister, for being here with me.

This is an important moment in terms of choosing our investments. Our budget focuses on urgent issues such as housing, the cost of living and fighting climate change. It also recognizes the fundamental importance of the arts and culture. We will be increasing our support for festivals, performances, music, the audiovisual sector and the protection of our news ecosystem, which is in jeopardy.

I would like to begin with a few key points on choices I think the committee will be interested in. The CBC/Radio‑Canada has been the subject of lively debate at the committee. It is a priority for me, and let me explain why.

The public broadcaster is the only dedicated, reliable, sustainable, independent source of news, information and entertainment that is uniquely Canadian from coast to coast to coast.

Our broadcaster is the only media outlet in Canada that serves Canadians in both official languages and in eight indigenous languages. It also covers regions that the private sector does not serve and does not wish to serve because of a lack of profitability. The CBC/Radio‑Canada helps Canadians make decisions and face crises and urgent situations together, such as those related to the pandemic and the impact of international conflicts on Canada.

Like the other six G7 countries, our government understands the role of a public broadcaster, especially in a world dominated by digital platforms and web giants. We also understand the importance of content that is produced at home, by us and for us.

With the private sector going through financial difficulties, journalists being laid off and newsrooms closing, we need sustainability for CBC/Radio-Canada. It would simply be irresponsible of a government in a democratic country such as ours to defund and shut down the most reliable and stable source of information.

So we have a choice to make, whether to let the free market reign and be invaded by foreign content, or stand up for Canada's voice. In view of the $42 milllion invested in budget 2024 and the current review of the CBC/Radio‑Canada's mandate, which I will talk about in greater detail in the coming months, we have made a clear choice.

Let us turn now to support for the arts and culture.

Our need to access information and content made locally is why we passed the Online Streaming Act and the Online News Act. Canadians want to see their experiences and communities reflected on screen, in what they read and in what they listen to.

As a sovereign nation, we have chosen to force foreign web giants to contribute, which benefits the work of Canadian creators, our culture and ensures that they play a role in promoting Canadian content. Despite the obstruction of our legislation, Canadian creators will be able to enjoy success in a competitive digital market since we have levelled the playing field.

As a Quebecker and a Canadian, I recognize that we have a distinct identity. In a world guided by American culture, our duty as a government is to act and to make sure that we always have our own cultural references. We are not American. Our heritage is important to us, and Canadians do not have to make do with American content.

That is why we have made landmark investments in the arts and culture since 2015, following the massive cuts made by the previous government. Every time we had to make a decision for the arts and culture sector, we chose to support it.

The same applies to our news ecosystem. You have surely noted, as have I, that the crisis in the news industry is having a serious impact on our social fabric and on our ability to exchange different points of view and obtain fact-based information. Numerous experts have shown through their work that the spread of fake news and conspiracy theories can undermine confidence in democratic institutions, polarize society and compromise the quality of public debate. These findings are alarming, and we are concerned. That is why local independent journalism is more important than ever.

We recently enhanced the local journalism initiative in budget 2024, and thanks to the passage of our Online News Act, Google will soon pay nearly half a billion dollars over five years to news organizations for their work.

While our cultural and informational ecosystems must overcome these major disruptions and changes, it is our responsibility to defend Canadians’ access to information and everything that helps build our identity. I remind you that in 2023, culture represented over $63 billion of our nominal gross domestic product, or GDP, and it supported over 705,000 jobs all over the country.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Kevin Waugh]

Thank you, Minister.

For five minutes, we'll have the opening round. The Conservatives will lead it.

For six minutes, we have Ms. Thomas, please.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Thank you.

Minister, as you know, the CBC falls under your portfolio. It's taxpayer-funded. Therefore, it deserves the utmost transparency with regard to how those tax dollars are being used.

We had the CBC's CEO, Catherine Tait, here at committee just a few weeks ago. When I asked her about executive bonuses for 2023-24 and whether or not they had been given out and how much they were, she said they had not been given out and no bonuses had been granted.

However, an official report tabled with the House of Commons just in the last little bit shows that, actually, the bonuses were given out for that year—to the tune of $15 million for the top executives. It works out that the average executive bonus given to the CBC for 2023-24 is $65,000.

That's a one-time bonus for the year. On average, it's $65,000. That's more than the average Canadian makes in a salary. Does it concern you that your hand-picked CEO, Catherine Tait, lied to us here at committee?

[Pascale St-Onge, Liberal, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

May I speak, Mr. Chair?

First of all, I will repeat again what was said previously. For over 1,000 CBC/Radio-Canada employees, part of their salary depends on achieving performance objectives. For fiscal year 2022‑2023, those decisions rest in the hands of management and the board of directors.

As for the President and Chief Executive Officer of CBC/Radio-Canada, we are waiting for the board of directors’ recommendation. It depends on an assessment of performance objectives, which are established objectively. They will be sent to us. The Governor in Council will then make a decision. To date, no decision has been made.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Chair, through you, the minister is not answering my question. She's choosing to avoid it.

The question was, does it concern you, Minister, that the CEO of the CBC, Ms. Catherine Tait, came to this committee a few weeks ago and lied to us? She told us that no bonuses for the year 2023-24 had yet been given out, when in fact a document tabled with the House of Commons shows that 15 million dollars' worth of bonuses were given out. Interestingly enough, those bonuses were given out to 100% of the executive team, meaning every single member got their full bonus to the tune of an average $65,000 a year.

Minister, my question is very clear: Does it concern you that the CEO of the CBC came to this committee and lied to us?

[Pascale St-Onge, Liberal, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

I completely reject my colleague’s statements. She is insulting CBC/Radio-Canada’s President and Chief Executive Officer every chance she gets.

I remind her that CBC/Radio-Canada’s President and Chief Executive Officer tabled a letter before the committee on May 28, 2024. The letter contains all the answers which, by the way, she had already provided during a committee meeting.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Again, I understand what is stated in the letter. I also understand the official document that was tabled with the House of Commons. Bonuses were given out to the tune of an average of $65,000 a year to the top executives of the CBC.

I'm wondering if it concerns the minister that the head of the CBC, Ms. Catherine Tait, came here and lied to us.

Does it concern you?

[Pascale St-Onge, Liberal, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Once again, I think the President and Chief Executive Officer answered your questions regarding the compensation model and decisions made for fiscal year 2022‑2023.

To my knowledge, fiscal year 2023‑2024 ended on March 31, 2024, and no decision has yet been made about it.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Minister, I would encourage you, then, to inform yourself about your file. I have a document from the Privy Council in front of me that was tabled with the House of Commons. It shows that bonuses for 2023-24 were given out, that it was to the tune of about $15 million for the executives at the CBC, and that it averages about $65,000 for those within the executive category.

Minister, does it concern you that the head of the CBC came here to this committee and lied to us?

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

While I appreciate Ms. Thomas's question and what she's trying to get at, the idea of calling somebody a liar when there are facts and evidence that would not necessarily back up that assertion is, I think, a bit problematic. Asking the minister to weigh in on an accusation of lying steps outside the bounds of what we should be doing.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Kevin Waugh]

Okay.

Continue, please, Minister.

[Pascale St-Onge, Liberal, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

I will reiterate the facts I just confirmed. The compensation paid out was for fiscal year 2022‑2023, not 2023‑2024. Fiscal year 2023‑2024 ended on March 31, 2024. Once again, I will repeat that the amounts paid were part of the compensation for non-unionized employees. It’s part of the working conditions linked to achieving performance goals, and management conducts those evaluations.

I must remind everyone that when the Harper government came to power…

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Minister, I can see that you have no intention of speaking about the question I have here today.

I'll respectfully take back my time. Thank you.

[Pascale St-Onge, Liberal, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

May I finish my answer, Mr. Chair?

[Jennifer O'Connell, Liberal, Pickering—Uxbridge, ON]

I have a point of order.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Kevin Waugh]

You have one minute left, Ms. Thomas.

Okay, Ms. O'Connell, go ahead on a point of order. Welcome.