Canadian Heritage Committee on Oct. 9th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 131 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage.

Before we begin, I would like to do a little housekeeping and tell you not to put any of your devices on the table so we don't create feedback.

Don't forget that you are not allowed to take photographs of what's going on here; you can get them afterwards off the website. Don't forget that, when you speak, you should address everything through the chair.

Yes, Kevin, go ahead.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Good afternoon, everyone.

On a point of order, I see that the deputy minister is here for the first hour. Is there any chance that she could stay for the second hour?

[Isabelle Mondou, Deputy Minister, Department of Canadian Heritage]

I will make myself available.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you.

I want to welcome the minister. Thank you for taking the time to come and for replying so promptly to our request.

Now we're going to begin with the study, which is Canada's anti-racism strategy. Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on Thursday, May 30, the committee will begin its study of Canada's anti-racism strategy.

The minister is here for the first hour. From the Department of Canadian Heritage, we have Isabelle Mondou, deputy minister, and Gaveen Cadotte, assistant deputy minister.

Minister, you have five minutes for your opening remarks, and then we will open the floor to questions.

Welcome and begin, please.

[Kamal Khera, Liberal, Minister of Diversity]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Good afternoon, colleagues and committee members. Thank you for inviting me to speak today.

As you indicated, Madam Chair, I'm joined by my wonderful officials, who have said that they'll be able to stay later, so thank you.

Madam Chair, when we got elected back in 2015, we started a very important conversation in this country about systemic racism and how we can address the impact that discrimination has on Canadians. We know that two in five Canadians say they face discrimination in Canada, and these proportions rise to 50% among indigenous people and to 78% among racialized people. We also know that the rise in hate incidents disproportionately affects indigenous people, Black and racialized people. At the same time, Jewish and Muslim Canadians are also disproportionately being impacted by the rise in anti-Semitism and Islamophobia.

Whether it is online or in our streets, hateful words and actions have a devastating impact on our communities and our country. Whether it is places of worship being attacked, communities being divided or losing loved ones, we have seen first-hand what hate and racism can do. When we look at the pain and damage that hate causes, one thing is clear: We cannot allow hate to go unchecked. The cost of inaction is far too great and, as a government, we have been very clear from the very beginning: Hate, racism and discrimination have absolutely no place in Canada.

We can all agree that every single person in Canada has a right to feel safe, regardless of where they're from, who they love and how they pray. To that end, in the last six months, our government has introduced two historic measures to address the critical situation our country is facing.

In June, we announced Canada's new anti-racism strategy, which is investing over $110 million to fight racism and discrimination, of which $70 million is being invested directly into communities to promote equity and to ensure communities have the resources they need to fight racism and discrimination, and to also break down systemic barriers that racialized Canadians face.

Additionally, just two weeks ago, we launched Canada's first-ever action plan on combatting hate. The plan represents an additional $273-million commitment from our government that is going to support 20 different initiatives that will empower communities to identify and respond to hate, that is going to support victims and protect survivors, and that is going to build community trust and improve institutional readiness within our institutions.

Combined, these two plans represent a whole-of-government approach that is fundamentally about security and unity. This is about being proactive, this is about safety and this is about building trust.

Just to give an example of the kind of work we're talking about, earlier this year I was in Halifax, and there I announced funding of $800,000 for an organization, Imhotep academy, which aims to improve BIPOC representation in STEM by providing after-school tutoring and mentorship for BIPOC youth in Halifax. I had an opportunity to meet a young man named Joshua, who, because of the mentorship he received, is now going to study engineering at Dalhousie University.

He's not the only one. Thanks to the program that we as government have been funding, working alongside community groups, there are 10 times the number of BIPOC students in STEM at Dalhousie University. This is just one of the hundreds of different projects that we have been supporting across this country. They are not just transforming lives; they are transforming and changing communities.

As a government, we are stepping up and doing what any responsible government would do to support communities on the ground and to continue to fight to keep Canadians safe. It is also important to remember that there is only one way to combat hate and racism, and that is to do it together. That is to do it with allies and partners on the ground. It's incumbent upon all of us to stand up against hate and racism and to build a Canada where everyone feels safe, and to reflect that when we work together, we actually bring people along, together. It's not just the right thing to do. It's the Canadian thing to do. That is the vision of Canada that our government is working to build.

I'm happy to take any questions from my colleagues. Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you very much, Minister.

We will now begin the question-and-answer period. The first session is going to be a six-minute round, and we're going to begin with the Conservatives and Jamil Jivani.

Mr. Jivani, you have six minutes, please.

[Jamil Jivani, Conservative, Durham, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

The minister said in her opening remarks that we cannot allow hate to go unchecked, so I'd like to ask her if she joins me in unequivocally condemning the Samidoun protests on October 7 in Vancouver, where there were chants of, “death to Canada, death to the United States and death to Israel”, and even the burning of the Canadian flag.

Do you unequivocally condemn that?

[Kamal Khera, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

I absolutely condemn such acts of anti-Semitism and acts of hate that we have seen across this country. They need to stop—full stop.

We condemn them in the strongest terms possible. We're working really closely with our colleagues at Public Safety. The local jurisdictions are very much engaged on this issue.

As I mentioned, we have been very proactive in the work we have been doing. Also, as I mentioned, we have put forward Canada's first ever action plan on combatting hate. This came out of the work we have been doing with community members and working alongside stakeholders. This came out of the two summits our government held on combatting anti-Semitism and Islamophobia. This came out of the work my colleague Minister Ien has been doing for the action plan for the 2SLGBTQ community.

The $275 million that we're putting forward is to support communities on the ground in preventing hate.

We're enhancing the Canada community security program, which helps communities on the ground to provide support.

[Jamil Jivani, Conservative, Durham, ON]

Minister, we have seen a sharp rise in hate crimes of various kinds over the last nine years. Some statistics measured it at a 251% increase. Why isn't your anti-racism strategy reducing hate crimes? Hate crimes are getting worse.

[Kamal Khera, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

It's important to recognize that, as a government, we have been very deliberate in making a choice to be inclusive. We have been very deliberate in reducing systemic barriers and supporting communities on the ground, and making sure that the plan we have put forward has a whole-of-government approach.

We know there's no one single solution to combatting hate. We need to work with partners on the ground to make sure that communities have the supports they need. At the same time, we need to work alongside StatsCan to make sure that we're collecting disaggregated data and we need to make sure that our institutional readiness is available for our police forces.

That's the work that's happening on the ground and those are the supports for victims and survivors. This is a whole-of-government approach that we have put forward to support Canadians.

It's important to recognize that it's been an extremely difficult time for many Canadians. As Canadians, we have a responsibility to work alongside communities, to bring people together, to really hone in on the values I know we're all so proud of as Canadians—unity and compassion—and to make sure that we're supporting communities on the ground.

[Jamil Jivani, Conservative, Durham, ON]

Thank you, Minister.

The government's anti-racism strategy claims to make our communities “more prosperous”. That's a quote from the website. Since 2020, there's been a 134% increase in food bank usage in Ontario.

Has your anti-racism strategy failed to make Canadians more prosperous?

[Kamal Khera, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

It's important to recognize the fact that when we got elected back in 2015, we made a very deliberate choice to be inclusive. I fundamentally believe, and I've said this many times, that diversity is a fact in Canada—it exists—but inclusion is a choice. As a government and as Liberal members of this House, we have been very deliberate in making that choice to be inclusive, because we know that when you remove systemic barriers for Canadians, we all win. We know that when you support communities on the ground and empower them....

There's the example I gave of a young man in Halifax whom I met, called Joshua. Because of the work that's happening on the ground, which is enabling and removing barriers and getting people access to the supports we are providing them, we're seeing amazing results in the economic empowerment of Canadians, and we're going to continue to do that.

[Jamil Jivani, Conservative, Durham, ON]

Minister, I'll ask a clarifying question. Is your strategy to make the food bank lines more diverse and inclusive? How exactly is the country more prosperous?

[Kamal Khera, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

I reject the premise of that question, Madam Chair. As I mentioned in my remarks earlier, Canada's anti-racism strategy is to ensure that every single person, regardless of how they look, regardless of how they pray and regardless of whom they love has equal opportunities to contribute to Canadian society and is able to do it in a successful way so that they can continue to grow. That is a responsible way that we include people.

I will always say that when we include people, whether it is in our government.... With the diversity that exists, whether it is in businesses or in our institutions, we all win, because that's the beauty of Canada. Those are the values I know. We all agree they're what make us who we are as Canadians.

[Jamil Jivani, Conservative, Durham, ON]

I'm not sure the Canadians lining up at food banks would think they're winning as part of the government's strategy.

Moving on, do you believe part of your responsibility is to remove some of the economic challenges facing Canadians of all races and backgrounds, and perhaps even advocating for an end to the carbon tax, which is driving up the cost of living?

[Kamal Khera, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

I want to give you one example: the Black entrepreneurship program.

Because of the work we have been doing, that program has supported more than 16,000 businesses among Black entrepreneurs across this country, enabling them able to enter markets they could never get into before. That's because of the work we're putting in to support communities on the ground.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you.

Now I'll go to the Liberals for six minutes.

Mr. Coteau, you have six minutes.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for being here, and thank you to your team.

I know there's no blueprint, really, for the work you've been doing from a pan-Canadian perspective. It's the first time a government has put forward a national plan like this to tackle something that's not new.

You know, I worked on an anti-racism plan for Ontario. We noticed that, from about 2012, even the national numbers were increasing in that time period. There was a trajectory shift at that point in 2012. We've seen a constant rise in hate crimes. We always tried to figure that out. Was it because we weren't collecting the data properly? There was no standardization in how reports came in. I know the RCMP has changed some of its methods of collecting that type of data. It is tough work because there is no blueprint, and because it is new work.

Thanks to you and your department for the work you're doing.

I've always looked at it like this: Fighting racism isn't only a moral imperative. There's also an economic side to it. You started to talk about that. There's a cost to standing still and not doing anything. As Canadians, we need to look for ways to remove barriers, so we can unleash the power of our people. That's one piece of why we're trying to tackle racism.

Can you take a minute to talk about some of the economic pieces within the plan that may target the indigenous community, the Black community and Canadians as a whole? It may target, for example, the Black community, but the benefits are for all Canadians. We all benefit. When the next-door neighbour is doing well, you're doing well. Can you talk a little about the economic aspirations of this plan, and about some of the success stories within the past work that is connected to this current plan?

[Kamal Khera, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

Thank you so much, Mr. Coteau.

You and I have chatted many times off-line, and I want to thank you for your leadership as we were building on this work. I know that we had been leading, but particularly your leadership as the previous chair of the Black caucus in our government has to lead this work.

I was talking about diversity existing in Canada—I think we all know this—but making sure that we include people in our economy and in our structures benefits all Canadians.

Particularly when you talk about supports for Black Canadians, you would remember in 2017 when Canada officially adopted the UN Decade for People of African Descent. Unfortunately, we adopted it late because a previous Conservative government didn't think that it was relevant to the community.

What that UN Decade for People of African Descent, when we adopted that as a Canadian government, allowed us to do is have a road map. It's the road map for how we remove those systemic barriers for Black Canadians in this country.

That led us to have an anti-racism secretariat internally so that the federal government could look at the different ways we address systemic racism within our institutions. That led us to have tangible investments into Black communities that weren't just handouts, as some members from the Conservative Party would like to say. It was doing the work, the partnership work, within the community.

I talk about the program called supporting Black Canadian communities initiative. This is a Black-led, Black-serving program that is working alongside four national funders to be able to give grassroots organizations on the ground the supports that they need to build capacity.

You and I would remember when the conversation was being had with many different stakeholders from the community. They said, “We just need to build capacity so we can help people,” because at the grassroots is where people know best. They have the best solutions, but sometimes they need a little support. That has been a wonderful way we have been leading this work alongside Black communities.

I want to go back to the Black entrepreneurship program, because the success story of that program is incredible. There are 16,000 businesses that have now been able to go through this program. It wasn't just getting a little access to capital or getting some loans; it was also about mentorship and about partnerships.

I met a single mom in Montreal who had started her business in Montreal. It's a pickle business that she started from her home. Because of this program and the knowledge hub that this program has, she has her product in almost every grocery store in Canada. She's a success story in terms of the work that's been happening because of the mentorship of this work.

To your point earlier around it not just being for our own benefit, it's about creating good, well-paying jobs for the community at large, and this is how you actively work with communities.

I think we all know that, when you include people, we all win. That's fundamentally the way we have been working, and we're going to continue to do this work together.

Thank you.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

I remember that, when we established the anti-racism strategy in Ontario in 2016, the consultations we did the year before were pretty tough.

I'm sure you had a lot of conversations with a lot of people across the country. What are those conversations like today?

[Kamal Khera, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

I think we all recognize that it's been a difficult time, particularly as we navigate the challenging times with communities across this country. The conversations I have had with the Jewish community members and the rise in anti-Semitism that we have seen across this country are troubling.

The rise in Islamophobia that we have seen across this country is troubling, and we need to make sure that we support communities on the ground. That's work we're leading across government. It's why we've been working at putting forward strategies and making tangible investments in them.

There is not just one department leading this work; this is a whole-of-government approach. I talked about the Canada action plan on combatting hate. Twenty different departments are engaged on the work. There are 20 different initiatives with seven different departments from Public Safety to the criminal justice system and StatsCan, which plays a really big role in getting this aggregated data so we can get the right type of data.

The fact is that we're working with law enforcement agencies. Communities know best how to report this data so we can have it.

This is work that we have been doing with the communities, and we're going to continue to do it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you.

We've gone a little over time there, Michael.

I'm going to go to Martin Champoux.

Monsieur Champoux, you have six minutes, please.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I hung on the minister's every word as she spoke of the woman entrepreneur from Montreal who started a pickle company. I wish the minister had brought a sample, so that we could have a taste of this lady's success; perhaps the minister will do so during her next visit.

On a more serious note, I'd like to thank the witnesses for being here today.

The issue we're discussing with you is an important one. In my opinion, it's all the more important because it's so timely. My Conservative colleague spoke earlier about the protest that took place this week on October 7, a particularly significant date in this case. During the protest, people said things that were beyond comprehension. I can't recall ever hearing such violent language used during protests in Quebec or Canada. I could be wrong—others can correct me—but it seems to me that we're hearing more and more of it, and we sense that some people believe it's legitimate, in the current context, to utter remarks that any reasonable person would say exceed the limits of what we consider to be freedom of expression in Canada. Saying things like “death to Canada, death to the United States and death to Israel” and burning a nation's flag is unacceptable here.

Minister, you say that you are quite prepared to take measures to counter this type of speech. However, a bill tabled by my party calls for the removal from the Criminal Code of the religious exemption, i.e., a section of the Criminal Code that allows a person to make this kind of statement if it is made under the guise of religious belief. I don't think I'm mistaken, but it seems to me that there's a kind of consensus within the parties and in the House of Commons that the exemption makes little sense, especially when we see protests like the one on Monday, and when we hear remarks like those made by Adil Charkaoui on November 8, 2023. I'll quote his extremely violent remarks:

Allah, deal with these Zionist aggressors. Allah, deal with the enemies of the people of Gaza. Allah, count them all and then exterminate them. And do not spare a single one!

Under the guise of his religious beliefs, that person may make such statements in public in Quebec and Canada.

You've put forward your policy, your plan to combat hate. Although this proposal is on the table, it makes no mention of the desire to remove the religious exemption from the Criminal Code.

I'd like to hear your opinion on that.

[Kamal Khera, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

Thank you for that very important question.

The rise in hate absolutely needs to stop, and I think we all agree that it needs to stop.

There are two things I want to mention. I think, first and foremost, in Canada we have a Charter of Rights and Freedoms that actually protects people, and we have a right to peaceful protest. However, it should not and it must not cross the line into hate and intimidation. I think we all agree with that. I think that's fundamental to who we are as Canadians.

To your point around the piece around hate speech, we have our online harms legislation, which I'm sure this committee knows full well. That actually tackles some of the spread of hateful speech online as well as in the real world, which we know starts online and trickles into our communities. This is something tangible and I know my colleague, Minister Virani, is very much in touch with the Bloc and others to be able to move forward on this.

I do want to go back to one thing in particular. It has been a very difficult time for so many communities and we need to acknowledge the grief and pain, the anxiety and the fear, that the communities are feeling.

I also need to make sure that we also all understand, and I want to reiterate once again, that people have a right to peaceful protest and it should be peaceful.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Minister, you've said it twice, and you're quite right, people absolutely have the right to peaceful protest. Even if peaceful protests can at times be somewhat tumultuous, there are limits to what is acceptable. There may have been outbursts, but there was no violence.

These are calls for hatred, calls for the death of a people. These are words of unprecedented violence. However, despite the fact that the tools are currently on the table, no action is being taken. These people aren't being arrested by the police and taken to court for what is assuredly hate speech, which has no place and which most certainly goes against all our principles of freedom of expression.

I find it hard to understand why we're still at this point, despite these extremely violent remarks being repeatedly uttered during protests—