Canadian Heritage Committee on Nov. 14th, 2024

Liberal

Pascale St-Onge Liberal Brome—Missisquoi, QC

We have to be very clear about that. Whatever the meaning of the Conservatives' empty slogan may be, it is impossible to “defund” the CBC without that having irreversible consequences for Radio-Canada, for several reasons.

First, we know very well that, at a number of regional stations, the technical teams are integrated. In fact, Radio-Canada's management explained it to this committee.

Second, when we talk about cutting public funding to the CBC, we're talking about cutting two thirds of public funding and eliminating thousands of jobs. In light of all this, it is impossible for CBC/Radio-Canada's private revenues not to be affected. Therefore, the cuts would be much greater than we think. I don't see in what world there would be enough resources for Radio-Canada to continue to fulfill its mandate to francophone communities, both in Quebec and outside Quebec.

Liberal

Charles Sousa Liberal Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON

The Conservative MPs have also expressed concern over job reductions at CBC/Radio-Canada, yet they simultaneously proposed defunding the organization. It seems contradictory to oppose job cuts while proposing a plan that would cause thousands to lose their jobs.

Minister, in your mind, how would the Conservative plan to defund the CBC impact the jobs of the everyday Canadians who would be most affected?

Liberal

Pascale St-Onge Liberal Brome—Missisquoi, QC

Shutting down CBC/Radio-Canada or “defunding” the corporation would have devastating consequences. Thousands of jobs are at risk. Approximately 8,000 jobs will be lost as a result of CBC/Radio-Canada being defunded. So hearing my Conservative colleagues get upset today about jobs at Radio-Canada is not credible.

In addition, many indigenous communities in Canada would lose the only media outlet that provides information and content in their indigenous language.

Let's not forget that CBC/Radio-Canada's investments in production and news have an extremely positive impact on our economy and on the Canadian cultural system as a whole. According to some estimates, every dollar invested in the corporation generates $2 in economic activity. It is also essential support for artists and creators, among others, who contribute $58 billion to our economy. The audiovisual cultural sector accounts for approximately 673,000 jobs in Canada.

Therefore, significantly cutting CBC/Radio-Canada's funding, directly or indirectly, will have a devastating impact on our economy and the entire audiovisual sector, in addition to depriving Canadians of their public broadcaster, which has been around for nearly 100 years. I don't understand why such an important jewel of our country is being attacked.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

Thank you.

You have seven seconds, Mr. Sousa, if you wish to do anything with that.

Liberal

Charles Sousa Liberal Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

Thank you.

I now go to the Bloc Québécois and Martin Champoux.

Martin, you have six minutes.

Bloc

Martin Champoux Bloc Drummond, QC

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Minister, thank you for taking time out of your schedule, which I suspect is full of emotionally charged files these days. So I'm very grateful to you for being here, especially since you've come to talk about a subject that affects us, that worries us and that worries Quebeckers and Canadians everywhere, as you said earlier in your opening remarks. I think that about 80% of Canadians who were asked the question said they wanted a healthy and high-quality public broadcaster.

That said, I think you will agree that not everything is perfect, that not everything is rosy and that there are indeed criticisms that can be levelled at CBC/Radio-Canada and at Ms. Tait's management over the past few years. We can come back to that.

I agree with you that we must also start looking for solutions, first to ensure the survival of the public broadcaster, but also to ensure its future.

You've already talked about the impact of the threat the Conservatives are putting on Radio-Canada's French services by wanting to “defund” CBC. Let's go back to that.

In your opinion, how serious would the impact on francophone culture in Quebec and Canada be if only the budget currently allocated to Radio-Canada were cut?

Liberal

Pascale St-Onge Liberal Brome—Missisquoi, QC

Madam Chair, I thank my colleague for his very relevant question.

We both know how much of a flagship institution Radio-Canada is for Quebec, for francophone communities outside Quebec and for the survival of the French language in a virtually anglophone North America.

We're talking about eliminating two thirds of public funding, the portion that goes to CBC. Obviously, that would leave very little money for Radio-Canada's mission. In addition, so many jobs could be lost that the technical production capacity of our public broadcaster's francophone activities would also be compromised.

I think the impacts are obvious. I fail to understand how the Conservatives can make such a proposal while claiming that Canadians will agree to fund a public broadcaster only in French and while the rest of Canada would be deprived of access to a public broadcaster whose services are really provided by and for Canadians. That seems completely inconsistent and impossible to me.

Bloc

Martin Champoux Bloc Drummond, QC

Allow me to make an aside.

If Radio-Canada's production services—in this case French-language services—were cut, that alone would have a very significant impact on the entire television industry in Quebec. As you said a little earlier, Radio-Canada plays a huge role, but it also has an impact on the entire ecosystem. A healthy ecosystem must also include Radio-Canada's presence as a producer, broadcaster and content generator.

I also want to talk about the costs involved. We discussed this with Ms. Tait when she last appeared before this committee. The Conservatives paint these costs as excessive or prohibitive. I, too, question the relevance of performance bonuses. I think it's a formula that needs to be reviewed, but that's another topic. The fact remains that the Conservative discourse promotes the message that it costs us a fortune to run a quality public broadcaster.

Obviously, there are different challenges here, in Quebec and in Canada. The territory to be covered is huge, and that comes at a cost. Despite everything, it costs approximately $33 per capita per year to have the CBC and Radio-Canada, which provide services in each of the two official languages, respectively, in addition to covering certain indigenous languages. By comparison, do you have an idea of what the costs are in other countries, Minister?

In addition, do you have an idea of what Quebeckers and Canadians would be prepared to pay to have a public broadcaster with no subscription fees for various services or without the advertising we see on just about every program and platform? Do you think Canadians would be willing to pay a little more than the small amount of $33 or $34 a year they currently pay, so that the public broadcaster would pay its employees out of government revenue, so out of its public revenue, rather than having to offer performance bonuses to try to attract people with competitive wages?

What do you think about the option of increasing not the burden—as $33 isn't really a burden—but the annual cost per capita?

Liberal

Pascale St-Onge Liberal Brome—Missisquoi, QC

We're doing poorly internationally, at least among countries that claim to be democratic. In Canada, the public broadcaster's funding level is $33 per capita per year, while the average for G7 countries is $86. So, as you can see, we're far below other countries. In addition, countries that experienced propaganda, like Germany did during the Second World War, invest hundreds of dollars per capita in their public broadcaster each year, because they fully grasp how important it is to have a public service that is a news source of at arm's length from the government.

Yes, I think there's a way to look at CBC/Radio-Canada's funding model. Currently, CBC/Radio-Canada's funding amounts to $33 per capita per year, but I would remind you that, as a result of the $115 million in cuts made under the Harper government, it dropped to $29. At that level of public broadcaster funding, we're really getting close to the worst of the G7 countries in this area, that is to say the United States, which invests $4 per year per capita. However, we know what the Americans think of public broadcasters in general.

In my opinion, there's some leeway to better fund our public broadcaster and to find formulas that allow for predictability and stability. This is important to ensure not only jobs, but also the development of our distinct culture, both in Quebec and in the rest of Canada, not to mention indigenous communities.

Bloc

Martin Champoux Bloc Drummond, QC

However, that formula has to be accompanied by a—

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

Thank you, Martin. I'm sorry, your time is up.

Can I ask everyone to please mute your mics when you're not speaking? The interpreters tell us we're getting some feedback. Thank you very much.

I'm going now to the New Democrats and Niki Ashton for six minutes.

Niki, you have six minutes.

NDP

Niki Ashton NDP Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB

Minister, I recently proposed a motion that was blocked by Liberal and Bloc Québécois colleagues, which dealt with some pretty serious issues at Canada Soccer. Now news has broken that this is only the tip of the iceberg.

Let's be clear on what we're talking about: It's a culture of pervasive cheating and pressuring at the top of our national soccer sporting organization and our national teams.

Players have been quoted as saying, “ 'No' wasn't an option. John Herdman put his staff under a lot of pressure. If his assistants refused, they were put aside”, and “You could be blacklisted, which would change your entire career.”

You are the former sports minister and the current heritage minister. Were you aware of this pervasive culture at Canada Soccer?

More importantly, what did you do, if anything, recognizing that the federal government funds Canada Soccer?

Liberal

Pascale St-Onge Liberal Brome—Missisquoi, QC

Thank you for your question. However, I invite you to put it to my colleague, the Minister of Sport and Physical Activity. That's no longer my portfolio.

I want to remind you that I'm here because a motion was passed in the House of Commons to discuss CBC/Radio-Canada on an urgent basis, it seems. So I came out of parental leave to be here with you today, but I'm here to talk about CBC/Radio-Canada.

NDP

Niki Ashton NDP Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB

Yes, I appreciate that, Madam Minister—

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

I remind members that we need to keep to the orders of the day. This meeting is specifically for CBC discussions.

Thank you.

NDP

Niki Ashton NDP Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB

Well, we also have a minister who was the former minister of sport, and the CBC has covered extensively, in the last few days, the scandal at Canada Soccer.

I would like to pass on to the Minister of Heritage to perhaps work with her colleague, the Minister of Sport, from whom we've heard nothing on this scandal, to table how much money from Own the Podium went to funding spying-related activities, like the purchasing of drones.

How much money was spent on surveillance, travel for coaches or equipment used for spying—