Canadian Heritage Committee on Nov. 14th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 137 of the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage.

Today’s meeting is taking place in a hybrid format. It's a truly hybrid format. It's interesting to see Mr. Champoux sitting there. I don't usually see him in the hybrid format.

Just to remind you all about the rules, please do not speak until the chair recognizes you. Please make sure you don't take photographs of what's on the screen. You can get the shots later on from the public website. Also, remember to put your hand up by using the little hand sign on your computer.

I think that's it. I think I've reminded you of everything I should remind you of.

Everyone has had their connection done properly, so we're going to begin the meeting.

Pursuant to the order of reference of Tuesday, October 29, 2024, the committee will commence its further consideration of the eighth report of the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage.

Today we're meeting with the Minister of Canadian Heritage, as required by the motion from the House of Commons. The Honourable Pascale St-Onge is here.

This meeting will be for one hour.

The minister is accompanied by Isabelle Mondou, deputy minister of Canadian Heritage, and Joëlle Montminy, senior assistant deputy minister of cultural affairs.

Minister, welcome. Thank you for taking the time to come. Knowing what's going on in your life at the moment, we appreciate your coming. You have five minutes for your opening remarks.

Thank you.

[Pascale St-Onge, Liberal, Minister of Canadian Heritage]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Committee members, we're all here to talk about CBC/Radio-Canada, so let's do that.

I want to make it clear to everyone in this room and to the people listening to us that the Conservatives are using anything to do with CBC/Radio-Canada to undermine the credibility of the public broadcaster. The reality is that they have no interest in the good of this institution at all and are working tirelessly to obtain a licence to destroy it. So these are two competing visions today.

First, the Conservatives claim to be concerned about jobs and the people involved. They're not. Their record of decisions during the Harper-Poilievre government tells a much darker story, and their slogan “Defund the CBC” threatens 8,000 direct jobs and tens of thousands of indirect jobs.

Let's review the facts. Every year after 2012, the Conservatives cut $115 million from the CBC. As a result of successive cuts by the Harper-Poilievre government, more than 1,700 Canadians lost their jobs. Therefore, I find their sudden interest in preserving jobs hypocritical and misleading.

With respect to pay for performance, we understand the issues around that. We, too, expect public money to be well managed at all times. We will therefore be closely following the study announced by the board of directors, which says that it wants to review this compensation method and explore better ways of doing things.

However, once again, the Conservatives' doublespeak is dishonest. I would remind you, members of the committee, that it was under the last Conservative government that performance pay was increased by over 65%, including for the person selected as president of CBC/Radio-Canada at the time, Hubert T. Lacroix.

You will therefore understand that it is pointless to pretend and engage in false debates. The reality is that the Conservatives are constantly campaigning to destroy CBC/Radio-Canada. We can't let them do that.

The truth is that they no longer want the independent public broadcaster to play a major role in informing our communities across the country. They no longer want CBC/Radio-Canada to be a driver of our cultural and artistic community. They tell us that they will erase nearly 100 years of history of one of the most established and recognizable Canadian brands from coast to coast to coast in both official languages.

In seeking to destroy the public broadcaster, they are showing a total disregard for reconciliation and telling us they no longer want CBC/Radio-Canada to keep producing content in eight indigenous languages.

With their slogan “Defund the CBC”, the Conservatives are telling us that they no longer want a public broadcaster that is there for francophone communities across the country. Let's be very clear about this: whatever their empty slogan is, it's impossible to “defund” the CBC without having an irretrievable impact on Radio-Canada. To say otherwise illustrates the incredible level of improvisation and lack of vision on the part of the Conservatives when it comes to the public broadcaster. In fact, the story they tell about CBC/Radio-Canada is false and out of touch.

Let's continue with the facts. Polls have shown for a number of years that, despite criticism and a desire to see an improvement, the public largely supports the existence of CBC/Radio-Canada. For example, the most recent study, released just three weeks ago, pegged public support at 78%. It's time for the Conservatives to take note of this.

What is the real motivation of the Conservatives? Could it be that they want to undermine the credibility of CBC/Radio-Canada because they prefer a digital universe flooded with less credible self-proclaimed influencers, disinformation and even foreign interference orchestrated by states hostile to Canada?

I remind you that, when it comes to journalism, CBC/Radio-Canada employs nearly a third of the country's journalists. By wanting to “defund” the institution, what the Conservatives really want is to deprive Canadians of professional journalistic information based on facts and produced under a code of ethics. For example, do they find that shows like Enquête or The Fifth Estate, which is celebrating its 50th anniversary, no longer have a place to shed light on the problems we are concerned about?

Attacking the public broadcaster is above all a way to weaken us collectively. This Conservative relentlessness is dangerous. The Conservatives claim to be in favour of freedom, while working to deprive Canadians of their public broadcaster. Is that the Conservatives' game plan, to destroy CBC/Radio-Canada in order to give foreign platforms free rein?

As I was saying earlier, there are two opposing views here.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

You have 30 seconds, Minister.

[Pascale St-Onge, Liberal, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Thank you.

There is a Conservative vision that puts Canada 100 years back in progress and makes us the only G7 country without a public broadcaster. Then there is our vision, one that recognizes that we must invest in our country in order to equip ourselves with the tools and means to keep being unique, autonomous and proud of Canada's stories.

To my NDP and Bloc Québécois colleagues, I propose that we work together to improve our public broadcaster without playing the Conservatives' dangerous game. They are not interested in dialogue, and they have only one goal at the end of the day—to shut down CBC/Radio-Canada.

Thank you for your attention.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you very much, Minister.

Now I'm going to the question-and-answer period.

Please remember that I'm trying to keep you on time, guys. I will give you the 30-second heads-up when you're finishing up your time. All of the time limits include questions and answers, not just questions.

We'll begin with the Conservatives and Mr. Kurek for six minutes.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Just to let you know, I will be splitting my time with Mr. Gourde. I'll let him know when that time comes.

Thank you, Minister, for being here.

When Ms. Tait, the CEO of the CBC, and the board appeared before this committee, the board made it clear that it approved of her performance as CEO of the public broadcaster. However, it also made clear that whether or not she gets a bonus is your call. The board made it clear that it approved of her performance.

Are you planning on awarding Ms. Tait a bonus?

[Pascale St-Onge, Liberal, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

At this point, I can say that the decision on that has not been made yet. I would also remind you that the Privacy Act means that details of people's pay and contracts cannot be disclosed.

So the decision has not been made. We will continue to study the issue in light of Ms. Tait's performance.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

Thank you very much, Minister.

However, it has been made clear that both Ms. Tait and the government.... There are no privacy laws that prohibit disclosure of this important information, which many taxpayers certainly want to know.

Minister, will you commit to this committee today to ensuring that Ms. Tait does not receive a bonus for this year and also to ensuring that she does not receive a generous taxpayer-funded exit package, such as a severance, when she completes her term as CEO of the CBC on January 4?

[Pascale St-Onge, Liberal, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

I remind you that there is no severance package. It just doesn't exist. So the suggestion that it exists is false. Also, as I said before, the decision has not yet been made with respect to Ms. Tait.

However, you will recall that one of the first things the Harper government did when it came to power in 2006 was to significantly increase—by 65%—performance bonuses for Crown corporation and public service executives. The Harper government said that was done in part to prevent senior executives—

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

Thank you, Minister.

Do you know who the highest-paid CEO in the history of the CBC—the public broadcaster—is?

[Pascale St-Onge, Liberal, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

What I do know is that the Conservative government increased the performance bonus for Hubert T. Lacroix, whom it appointed—

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

That individual, Minister, is Ms. Catherine Tait. Certainly the board seems to approve of her performance. It appears that you're unwilling to rule out giving her a generous bonus and a generous exit package.

I think Canadians demand more respect for their tax dollars.

Madam Chair, I would hand the rest of my time over to Mr. Gourde.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

You have a little under three minutes.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to the minister for being here today.

I would like to provide a brief historical overview. During the Liberal era of Jean Chrétien, CBC/Radio-Canada suffered budget cuts of more than $400 million, even though its budget was about $950 million. That was a budget cut of nearly 45%. I would remind you that, when times are tough, everyone must do their part. Under the Conservative government, the cuts were about 10%, instead of 45%.

Minister, you gave more money to CBC/Radio-Canada in the last budget. I think it was about $40 million or $45 million. Is that correct?

[Pascale St-Onge, Liberal, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

If I remember correctly, the amount in the last budget was $42 million.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

Thank you, Minister.

How many employees lost their jobs at CBC/Radio-Canada after the restructuring that was necessary because CBC/Radio-Canada was operating at a deficit?

[Pascale St-Onge, Liberal, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

To my knowledge, a few positions were eliminated through attrition. I don't have the exact numbers.

What I can tell you, however, is that there were no massive job cuts as was the case under the Harper government, when more than 1,700 CBC/Radio-Canada employees lost their job, which affected the quality of content and news across the country.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

Thank you, Minister. Please send us the exact number of jobs that were cut at CBC/Radio-Canada.

Concerning the $18 million in performance bonuses, how many jobs do you think could have been saved if that money had been spent on saving jobs rather than on performance bonuses?

[Pascale St-Onge, Liberal, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

As you know very well, those decisions are made within CBC/Radio-Canada itself, and the government has no oversight over the internal administration. You've asked management these questions before, so I'm going to stick to the answers they've given you.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

Minister, are you more on the side of the CBC than you are on the side of Canadian taxpayers? You can choose one or the other, or both.

[Pascale St-Onge, Liberal, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

That is not the case at all. I agree with the board's decision to review the compensation method at CBC/Radio-Canada. We expect public money to be administered responsibly.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

Thank you, Minister.

Did the model that will be presented stem from pressure from the Conservative Party or did you yourself think that the performance bonus should no longer be paid?

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Mr. Gourde, you have 15 seconds.

[Pascale St-Onge, Liberal, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

I have no idea what you're referring to when you talk about the model.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

I'm talking about performance bonuses. You're talking about reviewing how executives are paid as a result of pressure—