Canadian Heritage Committee on Nov. 14th, 2024

[Charles Sousa, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

I want to raise a point of order because, as you know, the minister is here on a constituency week. There are a number of issues at play. Let's stick to the orders of the day in regard to the purpose of this meeting.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you.

Ms. Ashton, please be reminded of the orders of the day.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Thank you very much.

In my speaking time, I am speaking to something that the CBC has covered, and I believe Canadians deserve accountability.

I'm actually quite concerned to see the extent to which Liberals do not want to talk about the scandal unfolding at Canada Soccer. I remind us that Canada Soccer is federally funded. I'm very disappointed to hear the lack of transparency from the Liberals on this issue. I certainly hope to receive documentation regarding Own The Podium's spending when it comes to Canada Soccer's spying-related activities.

Let's move on to the CBC.

Catherine Tait is wrapping up her time at the CBC, and between her leadership and the Liberals' running of the CBC, we've seen some serious damage to the CBC's reputation.

Let's look at the record. I'm proud to say that the House recently recognized that the threat of Liberal cuts led to one of the largest reductions of jobs in the CBC's history. Because of the Liberals, the CBC is now looking at a smaller workforce than even during the Stephen Harper years, and that's before the former Conservative leader made his own cuts.

There are numerous communities, including my own region here in northern Manitoba, that still do not have a CBC presence, which they are mandated to have, according to the CRTC. Meanwhile, we know the CBC is spending an exorbitant amount of money on executive bonuses. All of this has contributed to a movement we've seen from the Conservatives to destroy the CBC.

Canadians need the CBC. They need Radio-Canada. They need a strong public broadcaster, but not one that doles out executive bonuses while cutting jobs, and not one that leaves entire swaths of the country without a CBC presence, as it was mandated to provide.

How will you work with the new CEO to change the mandate of the CBC to ensure that the commitment to local journalism is prioritized over executive bonuses?

[Pascale St-Onge, Liberal, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

First of all, I want to correct the record, because what my colleague is saying is totally untrue. Under the Conservative government, nearly 2,000 jobs were lost. We restored all the funding that had been eliminated, and we made sure there was money so CBC/Radio-Canada would not have to cut any jobs.

As for the future, my goal is obviously to ensure that CBC/Radio-Canada has the means and the capacity to provide news and information in all regions of the country, including Manitoba, indigenous communities and francophone communities outside Quebec. It's crucial. I'm very much looking forward to working on that with my NDP colleague and my Bloc Québécois colleagues. I think we share the same objective: We want to ensure that Canada has a strong, viable and stable public broadcaster that is at arm's length from government.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Ashton, you have 20 seconds left.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

I will start by saying that we've been raising the lack of a permanent CBC presence here in our region for years, and we've seen no effort from the Liberals to address this. It's very concerning, and once again, it's more of an example of public relations from the Liberals than of actually making our public broadcaster live up to its mandate, which is a commitment to local and regional journalism on the ground, not in theory.

I look forward to some real leadership from the new CEO.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you, Ms. Ashton.

I now go to the second round, which is a five-minute round.

I will begin with Mr. Waugh for the Conservatives.

Kevin, you have five minutes.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thanks to the minister for coming today.

Minister, you and your department gave an extra $42 million to the CBC earlier this year, and it was to save journalism. We found out that half of the $42 million went to bonuses. How do bonuses, in your opinion, save journalism, when out of the extra $42 million that you handed over to the CBC, $18 million went to the bonuses? How did that save journalism in this country?

[Pascale St-Onge, Liberal, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

That's totally incorrect. After the Harper-Poilievre government cut $115 million, the government reinvested money so that CBC/Radio-Canada could maintain quality news coverage across the country. The $42 million was precisely to counter the media crisis in Canada. Everyone knows that Canada is facing a media crisis and that tech giants like Facebook and Google are taking more and more of the private advertising spends, including CBC/Radio-Canada's share. These investments were to avoid job cuts and maintain quality news coverage. We made sure there would be no cuts and no jobs lost.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

Minister, you gave an extra $42 million, and it was supposed to help journalism, but instead it helped with the bonuses, with $3.3 million going to the executives, while the rest was spread around.

As a former union rep—and a very successful union rep, I might add—I'm asking what you would have told your members in this situation. They're cutting massively in jobs on the ground, yet the bonuses went to executives.

As a former union rep, what would you say to this?

[Pascale St-Onge, Liberal, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

First, I refute my colleague's assertion that CBC/Radio-Canada has undergone massive cuts. That's not true. The jobs were maintained at CBC/Radio-Canada, except those that ended through attrition. Our government supports CBC/Radio-Canada.

If it were up to the Conservatives, 8,000 jobs would be at risk. I hear you talking about jobs today, but as a former union representative, I remember very well what the Conservatives did to the CBC/Radio-Canada union, and the job cuts too.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

Does this sit well with you? Does it sit well with you as the minister that the rank and file in this case paid the price? Does it sit well with you with regard to the bonuses that your department gave, when $18 million of that extra $42 million went to the executives? Does that sit well with you today in trying to save journalism, as you said?

[Pascale St-Onge, Liberal, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

As a former union representative and the current Minister of Canadian Heritage, I'm very proud to fight every day to keep the Conservatives from destroying our Canadian institution, which is nearly 100 years old and has invaluably served the Canadian public and the French fact. Without Radio-Canada, French might not even be spoken anymore outside Canada. I will fight every day to stop the cuts the Conservatives want to make to our public broadcaster.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

I have one quick question for you, Minister.

Was Tait's tenure at CBC since 2018 a success or a failure, knowing today that viewership is in decline, that ad revenue has plummeted and that trust in the public broadcaster has declined in this country?

With regard to Tait, I want your opinion as minister: Has it been a success or a failure since 2018?

[Pascale St-Onge, Liberal, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

All the Conservatives do is attack people to garner social licence to destroy CBC/Radio-Canada.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

I want a yes or a no. Has it been a failure or a success?

[Pascale St-Onge, Liberal, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

We may disagree on certain decisions, but the truth is that, every month, more than 50% of Canadians visit the CBC/Radio-Canada site and cite CBC/Radio-Canada as a credible news source.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

I know that, but—

[Pascale St-Onge, Liberal, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

It's also the only broadcaster—

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

I'm going to interrupt you, Minister.

I'm going to share my time with Mr. Kurek.

Go ahead, Damien.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Excuse me, Mr. Kurek. You are going to have only about 50 seconds. Actually, it's less than that. I just wanted to let you know.

Go ahead.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

I just want to be clear, Minister. Earlier you refused to rule out a big taxpayer bonus to the scandal-plagued, jet-setting and recently revealed conflict of interest CEO of CBC, a CEO who makes more than the Prime Minister and more than double your salary as a minister. Eighteen million dollars went in fat bonuses at a time when Canadians are visiting food banks in record numbers.

For the sake of taxpayers and all Canadians who are struggling, let's agree that while we may disagree on the future of CBC, we can agree today to defund bonuses at the public broadcaster.

Minister, will you today commit to reject any request for bonuses that ends up on your desk and commit to issuing a cabinet directive of that nature?

[Pascale St-Onge, Liberal, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

I'd like to remind my Conservative colleague of the Harper-Poilievre government's attitude at the time. To do so, I'm going to quote Rachel Curran, Prime Minister Harper's former director of policy, who explained how performance pay worked under Harper in Policy Options magazine in 2019. If you were a senior executive, like Hubert Lacroix at CBC/Radio-Canada, the more you cut, the more money you got. Senior management compensation was tied to that performance indicator. She recommended that the Ford government do the same thing. She wrote that, at the federal level, the Harper government made deputy ministers' compensation dependent on how well they achieved a department's budget reduction targets.

Therefore, I will not be lectured by a party that used performance bonuses as a tool to entice executives to implement Conservative cuts.

I would remind you that the Conservatives want to completely defund CBC/Radio-Canada, which will lead to the closure of an institution that is over 100 years old. So I'm not going to take any lessons from the Conservatives.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you, Minister.

We've gone over time on that one, guys. I'm going to go to the Liberals now.

Wayne Long, you have five minutes, please.

I mean five minutes, guys. We're going to run out of time.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Good afternoon to my colleagues.

Minister, thank you so much for taking the time today.

I want to pick up on MP Waugh's comments first.

He was just saying—and you hear it from the Conservative playbook all the time—that viewership is down. What does that really mean? How is viewership measured, Minister? Do these viewership measurements actually take into account how Canadians are consuming media in 2024? By my read, it's largely through streaming.

Before you answer, I also want to quickly comment on my riding of Saint John—Rothesay.

People in this riding love the CBC. They love CBC Radio. They love CBC New Brunswick. They love the Canadian content. They love the fact that the CBC ties our community together. In fact, you know, if the Conservatives want some free advice from me here in southern New Brunswick, it's that I think it's a wrong play to constantly talk about defunding and dismantling the CBC. I think it's a major mistake, and I think Canadians will rally, as they did in 2015, 2019 and 2021.

Anyway, Minister, I'll go back to you. I want to get your comments on Conservatives saying that viewership is down.