Canadian Heritage Committee on Nov. 14th, 2024

[Pascale St-Onge, Liberal, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

I think the Conservatives are stuck in the 1980s, when there was no Internet.

Let's look at the facts.

As you clearly heard me say, more than 21 million Canadians use the services of CBC and Radio-Canada every month. That's more than half of the adult population. Every month, nearly 50% of Canadians use CBC/Radio-Canada's websites and digital services, 17 million Canadians in the case of the CBC and 8 million Canadians in the case of Radio-Canada. There are 10 million podcast downloads per month, as well as millions more downloads on other apps and platforms, including streaming services.

The CBC also operates Canada's number one digital news service in terms of the number of users. CBC Radio is number one in 17 of 22 markets for listeners, including Toronto, but also Calgary and Edmonton.

In addition, five CBC/Radio-Canada podcasts were among the top 15 podcasts in Canada in 2023.

When we look at reality and the facts, we have to wonder why the Conservatives want to eliminate such a valuable source for Canadians and Quebeckers.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

I wonder why too, Minister. I would agree with you.

Minister, we know that public service media organizations have responsibilities that are different from those of private media because they have a mandate to serve all communities from coast to coast to coast. What potential effects would defunding CBC/Radio-Canada have on indigenous communities and their access to indigenous language stories, news and information?

[Pascale St-Onge, Liberal, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

I'll say it again, when the Conservatives talk about “defunding” the CBC, they forget that CBC/Radio-Canada is one of the only public broadcasters that provides information and content in eight indigenous languages. Members of Inuit communities with whom I spoke recently did not understand why the Conservatives wanted to abandon them. CBC is one of the only broadcasters that produce content in Inuktitut for Inuit people. CBC/Radio-Canada has an invaluable role to play in revitalizing Inuit, indigenous and Métis language and culture.

It's really unfortunate that when the Conservatives talk about “defunding” the CBC, they don't take into account that reality and all the effort we're putting in to support indigenous communities in the spirit of reconciliation and partnership.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

You have 50 seconds.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

Thank you.

Minister, I want to follow up on another issue. You obviously just talked about impacts to indigenous communities, but how would cuts to CBC/Radio-Canada funding—obviously, the Conservatives want to dismantle and defund the CBC—also affect other underserved populations, such as rural, minority language and newcomer communities?

[Pascale St-Onge, Liberal, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Let's talk about rural Canadians. I'm thinking, among others, of the people in your riding you told me about. Most rural Canadians, 72% to be exact, say that CBC and Radio-Canada news and information services help them understand what's going on not only in their communities but also in other parts of the country. Many rural Canadians are not served or are underserved by private media. That's even the case in 34 Canadian cities with a population of over 50,000. Many rural communities across the country want more local news and information. So this is an area in which CBC/Radio-Canada could, and even should, significantly improve its role across the country.

We mustn't forget that Radio-Canada serves one million francophones outside Quebec. Its extensive presence provides access to language and culture, but also to the community.

I will conclude by saying that Radio-Canada International also offers news online in seven languages, English, French—

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you, Minister. Can you wrap up your answer, please?

[Pascale St-Onge, Liberal, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Yes.

So those seven languages are English, French, Spanish, Arabic, Chinese, Punjabi and Tagalog. It's important for diaspora communities established here in Canada.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you.

I'll go to the Bloc and Martin Champoux.

Martin, you have two and a half minutes.

Everybody seems to be going a minute over their time, so I will forgive you if you move a little bit over your time.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

I'm going to take advantage of your leniency, Madam Chair.

Madam Minister, once again, I'm going to make an aside. I always wonder what the real motivations of the Conservatives are when they criticize the CBC/Radio-Canada CEO's salary. I find it curious coming from them, because they generally advocate the free market and are aware of market realities in general. It's not that I think Ms. Tait deserves a salary like this or that she was worthy of this position; that's not the issue.

I want to come back to the idea of comparisons. Let's take the case of Australia, since the figures for that country are available. Australia has 27 million people. The CEO of the Australian Broadcasting Corporation, which is the Australian public broadcaster, earns $820,000 annually in Canadian currency. We can also compare apples to apples, so that our criticisms are as fair and appropriate as possible.

That said, I want to talk to you about something else, Madam Minister.

Discrediting the news media, which are generally mainstream media, is a trend we see in a number of countries, from a certain type of politician. You don't have to go very far to see it. For years, Mr. Trump in the United States has been talking about fake news when he brings up traditional media. That's created a kind of divide between the so-called left-wing and right-wing media, a divide that has actually grown so much that it has probably created a disconnect with respect to the news media in the United States. In my opinion, that's what some proponents of populism and disinformation are trying to do politically. They're trying to discredit journalists who are very thorough and ferret out false information or false narratives.

Madam Minister, what do you think of Pierre Poilievre's approach and the fact that Canadians don't seem to buy into it at all?

You have about a minute left to have fun answering my question.

[Pascale St-Onge, Liberal, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Thank you very much for the question.

Like you, I think that's an extremely dangerous approach. As we know, in a democratic society, the people in power, whether political power, large corporations or those who influence the world the most, must be accountable to the people. That's what distinguishes a democratic society from an authoritarian country where no one can criticize anything.

When I see Conservative members attacking journalists, I see that as attacking our democracy and those who demand answers from them. However, we know that the Conservatives don't like to give answers.

In short, I think this is an extremely dangerous approach, and I feel it says a lot about the Conservatives' view of how a democratic society works.

I also think it's dangerous from a national security standpoint. As we know, there's a lot of disinformation circulating on the Internet. Foreign interference even happens online. If Canada is to counter those who seek to destabilize our democracy, we need news and information managed by and for Canadians. When people attack CBC/Radio-Canada, the strongest broadcaster in Canada that employs a third of Canadian journalists, they are by the same token attacking our national security.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you. We will go now to Niki Ashton.

Niki, you have two and a half minutes, and I will be lenient.

Go ahead.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Thank you.

I would like to use my time to move a motion for which you've all received notice. It's with regard to Canada's ongoing protection of Nazis who were allowed to enter Canada during and in the immediate aftermath of the Holocaust. This is a shameful part of our history, and I urge all my colleagues to support this motion.

We just marked Remembrance Day. We all, I'm sure, attended ceremonies honouring the Canadian soldiers who served our country. We vowed never to forget the sacrifices of the many Canadians who served and died throughout history. This year also marked the 80th anniversary of D-Day and the historic Battle of Normandy, in which Canadians played a pivotal role in liberating Europe and the world from fascism. The Battle of Normandy came at a heavy cost. Some 19,000 Canadians were killed or wounded by the Nazis.

In France, they remember. It was very emotional for me and my family when, on a private visit this summer, we heard the playing of O Canada and heard the appreciation of a town liberated by Canadian soldiers. Eighty years later, they remember. They remember what the fight against Nazism and fascism was all about.

This is personal for many of us. Today, I can't stop thinking of many members of my family who fought the Nazis. They knew what was at stake. It was the very future of humanity itself.

I think of my family and my community. I think of my family in Greece, who suffered under the Nazi occupation and fascist brutality. I think of the Jewish communities across Greece and in the village next to my pappos, my grandfathers, who were wiped out by the Holocaust. It was an absolute result of Nazi ideology. I think of others who have family members who were victims of the Nazis, or the family who never got that opportunity to come to Canada because they were turned away by a country that was far too comfortable saying no to Jews, the victims of the Holocaust, but yes to too many perpetrators.

Canadians deserve to know how, according to the Deschênes commission, Nazis were welcomed into this country. Many Jewish, Polish and Ukrainian organizations have been clear that the names need to be released, yet Library and Archives Canada, which is under the Minister of Canadian Heritage, said no.

This is shameful, so I want to move my motion. I move that “Given that the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage regrets the continued protection given by the Minister of Canadian Heritage to the estimated 900 Nazis that were allowed to enter Canada after the Second World War”, etc., be supported in this meeting today.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

I want to inform the committee that Ms. Ashton gave notice of this motion in writing, in English and French, on Monday, September 23, so it can be tabled on the floor today. I have to ask if anyone wants to discuss or debate this motion.

Seeing no hands up, I think we're going to have to call the question on the motion, since there's no debate.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Madam Chair, there are hands up.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Excuse me. I'm just going to call on the hands that are up.

Go ahead, Mr. Sousa.

[Charles Sousa, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

I want clarity. We're new to the committee, and I want to have time to reflect on what's being proposed to determine whether we should adjourn the debate or not.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Go ahead, Ms. Ashton.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Yes, I can certainly elaborate. The motion I submitted on Monday, September 23, indicates:

That, given that the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage regrets the continued protection given by the Minister of Canadian Heritage to the estimated 900 Nazis that were allowed to enter Canada after the Second World War by refusing to release their names and refusing to listen to organizations representing victims of the Nazis, the committee invite the Minister of Canadian Heritage to instruct Library and Archives Canada to release the names of the 900 Nazis before International Holocaust Remembrance Day on Monday, January 27, 2025, and that this motion be reported to the House.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Monsieur Champoux is next.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Madam Chair, once again, Ms. Ashton comes to us with surprises at the end of the meeting. There would be a lot to discuss on this motion, and I would be more than willing to do that at the appropriate time.

I have very serious concerns about this motion.

On the one hand, an investigation and a report were done. Ms. Ashton's motion refers to some 900 Nazis, whereas some places are saying 800. That being said, were these individuals Nazis? That's not necessarily the case. The investigation revealed that, on the contrary, in the vast majority of cases, there was no reason to suspect them at all, and they were exonerated immediately.

On the other hand, among the issues I'm raising now, let's talk about the people who were investigated after the Deschênes commission. I think there were very few, just a few dozen, and they were exonerated. They didn't see fit to go any further.

Today, however, the motion calls for the disclosure of the names of those 800 or 900 people who are most likely dead today, in the vast majority of cases. Their descendants are surely very well integrated and have nothing to do with anything their parents or grandparents might have done wrong. I think this is extremely sensitive. Ms. Ashton has come to us with this motion at the end of the meeting, when it would probably require a slightly more informed and less rushed debate.

So I'm extremely uncomfortable with this motion that's coming to us—and I'm not sure why—when we're discussing CBC/Radio-Canada.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

I have a point of order, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

I'm sorry. Who is saying “point of order”?

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

I have a point of order.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Ms. Ashton, are you rising on a point of order?