Canadian Heritage Committee on Nov. 18th, 2024

[Dr. Shannon Dea]

It really depends on the details of the power and control.

I'll take, for example, the federal government's current fight with Facebook and X. Every day I hear Canadians complaining about their inability to access news through social media. On the other hand, the reason for that legislation is to try to get profits into the hands of independent Canadian journalism outlets so they can continue to do the job of journalism rather than have those profits entirely reaped by non-Canadian multi-billionaires.

[Jamil Jivani, Conservative, Durham, ON]

If a student on your campus said, “I really wish I could see news on Instagram, but I can't because of decisions Justin Trudeau has made”, would you say, “Trust the government”?

[Dr. Shannon Dea]

I would say go to the library, because we have every Canadian news outlet in the library, online and in hard copy. Go directly to the news sources and seek your information from Canadian journalism, not from American social media.

[Jamil Jivani, Conservative, Durham, ON]

I see. You would say that in attempting to organize activists, people who are concerned about issues in their country who rely on social media as a way to get information and also as a way to communicate their concerns should just go to the library and accept what Justin Trudeau has done?

[Dr. Shannon Dea]

That's clearly not what I said.

Social media turns out to be very useful for organizing protests and so forth, and it continues to be useful for that. You can't share a newspaper article, but mostly protests aren't organized around the sharing of newspaper articles. You create events and you create discussion boards and so forth. The limitations are pretty—

[Jamil Jivani, Conservative, Durham, ON]

You seem to be articulating that this government here in Ottawa, in accumulating power and control, has these very nice motives. Is there an extent to which it would be fair to acknowledge that Canadians are right to be skeptical of that, and that when they open up Instagram and cannot access the news, they should be concerned about bureaucrats in Ottawa who really want to determine what they're able to see and not see?

[Dr. Shannon Dea]

I think Canadians are right to be skeptical of political activities in general. That skeptical attitude and the desire to seek good information in order to deliberate and make good decisions make us better citizens. No matter who's in government, we ought to approach the actions of government with caution.

[Jamil Jivani, Conservative, Durham, ON]

Would you say, then, that attempts by a government to control and censor what people can say deserve critical thinking and response and do deserve serious questions? As a person who said in your opening statement that you're concerned about authoritarian exercises of power, would you say that maybe Canadians do have a point when they say this is a censorious streak that deserves serious attention?

[Dr. Shannon Dea]

All legislation deserves critical thinking and attention by citizens. I don't agree that trying to support the profits of independent Canadian journalistic outlets is censorious.

[Jamil Jivani, Conservative, Durham, ON]

So censorship is always raising funds for a purpose—

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Kevin Waugh]

Thank you, Mr. Jivani. Thank you, Dr. Dea.

We'll move now to the Liberals for five minutes.

Go ahead, Ms. Lattanzio, please.

[Patricia Lattanzio, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My first question is addressed to Professor Dea.

You touched briefly on this in your opening statement, but can you tell us a little bit more about the impacts of the far-right discourses and how they've marginalized students and communities on university campuses?

[Dr. Shannon Dea]

I would commend to you the research of Jeffrey Sachs, who's a political scientist at Acadia University. For years now, Dr. Sachs has been researching censorious reprisal and discipline against academic staff in North America.

Over the course of his research, he has found that in fact very few academic staff have been terminated because of their expression or their views, but overwhelmingly those who have been terminated have been on the left. It's very interesting, because there is a campaign by groups in the U.S. to characterize the left as censorious and as threatening the expression and scholarship of conservative scholars, but that's not borne out by the evidence when you look at the longitudinal analysis that Dr. Sachs has provided.

[Patricia Lattanzio, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

In your opinion, do the political support and propping up in similar speeches, such as what we saw from Mr. Poilievre and many members of his caucus with regard to the “freedom convoy” and other far-right groups, have a similar impact on freedom of speech and freedom of expression for marginalized communities?

[Dr. Shannon Dea]

I think people are more influenced, honestly, by social media and their neighbours' opinions than they are by political speech. There's a risk that when people in positions of power engage in polarizing speech that makes its way onto social media, it can further polarize and disinform the public, but I think it's by an indirect route.

[Patricia Lattanzio, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

Okay.

Professor Laidlaw, as you know, the Conservatives have unfortunately been stalling the debate on Bill C-63, the online harms act, in the House with their ongoing filibuster. Why is this harmful to freedom of speech?

[Dr. Emily Laidlaw]

That's a great question.

Bill C-63 deserves debate and it deserves attention. No matter what we've heard today in our discussions, technology law and technology are at the centre of all of these discussions about freedom of expression, and this is the first step. Canada, again, is decades behind other jurisdictions in addressing this particular issue, so that debate needs to happen, and we want to hear from all voices on it.

I'm quite eager to see this bill get to committee, and I would encourage every elected official in the room now to encourage it to go to committee as well in order to have that important study and debate.

[Patricia Lattanzio, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

You mentioned other countries having adopted the same kind of mechanism. You mentioned Australia and other countries.

In Bill C-63, what are the similarities that you find in the proposed legislation and in legislation in other countries that have adopted the same law?

[Dr. Emily Laidlaw]

The key similarity is a focus on risk management by social media companies, which, again, is a second-generation, best-in-class approach to addressing online harms and protecting freedom of expression. That's the approach in the EU and it's the approach in the U.K., Australia and Ireland. Other countries are following suit as well.

There are only a few types of content that require content removal and would have the greatest impact on freedom of expression, and I think we can all get around those: child sexual abuse materials and non-consensual disclosure of intimate images.

It's quite carefully thought out legislation. Again, I would make some amendments to it, but the structure is there.

[Patricia Lattanzio, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

What types of amendments would you make?

[Dr. Emily Laidlaw]

I would make one key amendment, which is that as part of risk management, a private company should look not just at harms but at the ways it protects and promotes freedom of expression and privacy in particular. As part of the transparency obligations of that company, it should set out what it does so that it can say, “This is how I balance things out when I'm thinking through issues such as hate and incitement to violence.”

[Patricia Lattanzio, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

Thank you.

Ms. Grant, in your opinion, what is the importance of having a free and independent press and ensuring freedom of speech and freedom of expression? How do misinformation and disinformation play a role in diminishing or affecting people's ability to express themselves freely?

[Ga Grant]

Media expression is so important for our democracy, because the right to freedom of expression also includes the right to receive information. We need that information in order to hold the government accountable and to participate in democracy, so it facilitates that—

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Kevin Waugh]

Thank you very much. We're over the time.

We're moving now to Mr. Champoux for two and a half minutes. Go ahead.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Thank you.

Ms. Grant, I'll continue with you.

Earlier, you talked about the infringement of freedom of expression in the context of demonstrations, particularly in the context of pro-Palestinian demonstrations.

Do you think it's possible that certain pro-Palestinian demonstrations were infiltrated by pro-Hamas elements and that slogans calling for the destruction of Israel were chanted not only by these elements, but by the demonstrators as a whole?

Could this have justified a slightly more forceful intervention at this point?