Evidence of meeting #14 for Canadian Heritage in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was artist.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Thomas Owen Ripley  Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Department of Canadian Heritage
Ginette Brazeau  Chairperson, Canada Industrial Relations Board
Simon Brault  Director and Chief Executive Officer, Canada Council for the Arts
Kelly Beaton  Director General, Arts Branch, Department of Canadian Heritage
Philippe Beaulieu  Chartered Professional Accountant, As an Individual
Costa Dimitrakopoulos  Director General, Income Tax Rulings Directorate, Legislative Policy and Regulatory Affairs, Canada Revenue Agency

4:50 p.m.

Costa Dimitrakopoulos Director General, Income Tax Rulings Directorate, Legislative Policy and Regulatory Affairs, Canada Revenue Agency

Good afternoon, Mr. Chair. Thank you for the invitation to appear before you today.

My name is Costa Dimitrakopoulos.

I am the Director General of the Income Tax Rulings Directorate in the Legislative Policy and Regulatory Affairs Branch within the Canada Revenue Agency.

I am pleased to answer any questions you may have regarding the general taxation of artists. In my remarks today, I will be providing the committee with a general overview of this topic. To set a helpful context for today's discussion, I'd like to briefly describe the role of the CRA.

As you may know, the Department of Finance is responsible for developing and evaluating federal tax policy and amending the Income Tax Act. As administrator, the CRA is responsible for the functions that implement the Income Tax Act, including providing information to the public and stakeholders; establishing processes through which individuals and businesses may meet their tax obligations and receive benefits; and carrying out compliance activities to help ensure that everyone respects the law as intended by Parliament.

With respect to the taxation of artists, the amount received by an artist may generally be taxed as income from business, income from property, income from employment or other income. The tax treatment of a particular amount depends on the nature of the amount received, the circumstances under which the amounts are received and whether the artist is an employee or is self-employed.

Many factors must be considered in determining whether an individual is an employee or is self-employed. Essentially, the question to be decided is whether the contract between the parties is a contract of service that exists between an employer and an employee or is a contract for services, that is, the engagement of a self-employed individual.

A contract for service generally exists if the person for whom the services are performed has the right to control the amount, the nature and the management of the work to be done, and the manner of doing it. A contract for services exists when a person is engaged to achieve a defined objective and is given all the freedom required to attain the desired result.

If it is determined that the artist is an employee, amounts received by the artist generally will be taxed as income from employment. Artists who are employees have a limited amount of expenses they may deduct from employment income, such as travelling expenses, motor vehicle expenses and musical instrument costs.

Where an artist is determined to be self-employed, they are generally considered to be operating a business. When an artist receives financial assistance in the course of operating a business, the amount is included in the calculation of their business income. Generally, expenses incurred to earn business income are deductible, provided the expenses are reasonable, not personal or living expenses, not on account of capital and not made for the purpose of gaining or producing exempt income. An example of a deductible expense would be an agent’s commission.

Art production grants that are neither business nor employment income are included in an artist’s income as other income; however, the art production grant exemption may allow the artist to reduce the amount included in income by the reasonable expenses incurred to fulfill the conditions of each grant, such as the cost of materials. The exemption cannot exceed the amount of the grants. In instances where the exemption is less than the amount of the grants, an artist may be entitled to reduce the amount of the grants included in income by up to an additional $500.

Through its liaison officer service, the CRA offers free virtual support and guidance by video conference or phone to small businesses and self-employed individuals. To align with the CRA’s “people first” approach, the liaison officer service helps small business owners and self-employed individuals understand their tax obligations and helps them avoid common errors that could end up costing them time and money.

Over the past two years during the tax filing season, liaison officers have provided seminars to members of the Canadian Artists' Representation. The information provided was tailored towards artists and writers and included information regarding deductible expenses; how to correctly report income as self-employed individuals; information on the CRA’s COVID-19 benefit programs and the CRA’s online services; and key information about the tax filing season. These seminars have been well received, and we intend to continue offering similar sessions in the future.

With that, again, I am pleased to answer any questions the committee may have regarding general taxation of artists.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative John Nater

Thank you very much. You had 10 seconds to spare.

We will now go into our first set of questioning.

This is the six-minute round. The first round is with Ms. Thomas from the Conservatives.

The floor is yours.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

Thank you.

Welcome to both of the witnesses who are here with us today.

As you know, the topic of discussion at hand is the well-being of Canadian artists. More formally, it has to do with their financial well-being.

I'm really proud of the diversity that exists among Canadian artists across this country. They are definitely coming up with some really great work, and as other witnesses have stated, we are very much enjoying that. They played a key role in—

4:55 p.m.

Bloc

Martin Champoux Bloc Drummond, QC

A point of order, Mr. Chair.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative John Nater

You have the floor, Mr. Champoux.

4:55 p.m.

Bloc

Martin Champoux Bloc Drummond, QC

There is a problem with the interpretation. I'm wondering whether Ms. Thomas has indeed selected the headset option, because I get the feeling the sound is coming from the computer.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative John Nater

Yes, I get the same feeling.

Ms. Thomas, is the microphone plugged in and appropriately selected?

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

I apologize, Chair. I think I have it set up now.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative John Nater

I'd like to know whether it's working for the interpretation.

Ms. Thomas, could you speak for a little bit longer?

5 p.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

Sure. I don't mind chatting a little bit longer.

Chair, perhaps you could confirm for me that this isn't eating into the time that's been allotted for me to speak and that I will in fact have an entire six minutes.

5 p.m.

Conservative

John Nater Conservative Perth—Wellington, ON

Yes, Ms. Thomas, you will.

Interpretation is indicating that it is now working.

I will restart the clock, and the floor is yours.

April 4th, 2022 / 5 p.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

Awesome. Thank you so much, Chair. I apologize to the committee.

I started out by welcoming the witnesses, and of course thanking them for the good work they're doing.

Thank you for giving us your time today. I also acknowledge the good work that artists have done, not only to keep us entertained throughout the pandemic but long, long before that, and contributing to the arts and culture within Canada.

There are a great variety of artists, and I think those voices deserve to be celebrated across this country, no matter their platform or the artistic expression of their choosing.

We've heard from a variety of artists at this committee, but I don't want to assume that either of you have listened to the different discussions that have gone on here.

Darcy Michael is a comedian and a digital first creator. He offered some really interesting comments that spurred a few questions from me.

Again, coming back to the fact that you probably haven't listened to all of the testimony that has been shared here, I would like to read a quote from his time, and then I have a question for Mr. Beaulieu.

Mr. Michael said the following:

Some of you might not be aware of this, but for some reason that no one has ever been able to explain to me, comedy is not a recognized art form in Canada. As comedy is not recognized as an art form, unlike musicians, actors, dancers and writers, comedians are not eligible for grants in Canada, which meant that the pandemic left no options to help me or my family. So I pivoted. I decided to take the concept of my sitcom to digital platforms like TikTok and Instagram, partially to entertain myself during those early dark days of the pandemic, but also because I wanted to prove the concept of the show—not in hopes of networks changing their minds, but because I'm bitter and I wanted to prove them wrong. I did. Fast-forward to today. Eighteen months after first joining TikTok, across all social media platforms, I have three million followers. Our TikTok channel alone averages 40 million to 60 million views a month. For the first time in my career, I'm reaching Canadian households that I could have only dreamed about before. Not only that, I own 100% of my content. I'm 100% in creative control, and I keep 100% of my profits. With platforms like YouTube, TikTok and Instagram, artists can be in control of their creations, their content and their businesses. Of course, networks and record labels are crying foul, because they can no longer take advantage of the starving artist. Being a content creator online has single-handedly been the best decision I've ever made. [...] Before pivoting to being a digital creator, I was making ends meet as an artist, but just barely.

He went on to say:

Not only has our success benefited us financially, but by my working directly with Canadian brands across our social media platforms, in just the last 12 months, we've helped put over $500,000 in sales back into the Canadian economy. That's from one channel on TikTok.

He further went on to say:

Bill C-11 will directly affect my ability to earn an income. [...]

I just think that we need to make an amendment to that one portion of the bill. I don't want to be included. I don't want to be paying 30% to something that I don't benefit from as a digital creator. I think it's a second tax. I think that by the end of the day I'll be paying 80% tax on my income. That isn't fair.

Mr. Beaulieu, you commented on the taxation scheme within Canada and how greater benefit might be afforded to artists. I didn't hear any specific mention of digital artists. I believe that they need to be considered, because they fit within the grand framework of Canadian artistry in this country.

We've heard from many artists who have succeeded by pivoting to these creative platforms. They already pay an income tax from their income as an individual. Now they're concerned that there's going to be an additional 30% that they'll have to pay with Bill C-11 passing, which causes them to fall under the CRTC and having to contribute to the arts fund.

My question for you is, would a 30% tax on top of the income tax that they already pay help digital first creators to better earn a living?

5 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative John Nater

Mr. Beaulieu, the floor is yours to answer the question.

5 p.m.

Chartered Professional Accountant, As an Individual

Philippe Beaulieu

I'm sorry, I didn't hear properly.

Certainly it would help artists in the digital arts sector if they had the option of averaging their income over several years. Naturally, that would be a good way of spreading out the taxation of the money that may be earned...

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

Mr. Beaulieu, if I may, I'll just clarify my question.

If digital artists are forced to pay 30% off the top of their revenue into the arts fund, will that benefit them in terms of their overall income as individuals and their well-being?

5:05 p.m.

Chartered Professional Accountant, As an Individual

Philippe Beaulieu

Thank you for the clarification, Ms. Thomas.

Yes, the money that artists have to pay into this fund is a tax deductible expense within the meaning of the Income Tax Act, because it enables them to earn an income. Certainly, it is a relatively high percentage of their income that goes directly into supporting that fund, but, because it is a tax deductible expense, it reduces their taxable income.

I didn't know that the percentage was that high. It is an inevitable expense, but it is still a tax deductible expense and so it is an expense that enables artists to reduce their taxable income.

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative John Nater

Thank you.

Our next round of questioning will go to Mr. Housefather, from the Liberals.

Mr. Housefather, you have six minutes.

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC

Thank you so much, Mr. Chair.

I want to give my own opinion, which is that Canadians are included in the membership organizations that are certified to bargain on behalf of artists, such as ACTRA and Union des Artistes. The 30% imposed on digital creators is simply a conjecture of my colleague, and I don't think, in my view, that's founded based on what's in the bill.

Let me now move to the topic at hand.

First, a big thanks for being with us today, Mr. Beaulieu and Mr. Dimitrakopoulos.

My question is for Mr. Dimitrakopoulos. Could you talk to me about what federal tax deductions are available to artists and maybe just list them?

5:05 p.m.

Director General, Income Tax Rulings Directorate, Legislative Policy and Regulatory Affairs, Canada Revenue Agency

Costa Dimitrakopoulos

In terms of the deductions for artists who are self-employed, there are a number of them, and I'll list them: insurance premiums on musical instruments and equipment; the cost of repairs to equipment, including the costs of new reeds, strings, pads and accessories; legal and accounting fees; union dues and professional membership dues; an agent's or mandatary's commission; remuneration paid to a substitute or assistant; the cost of makeup and hair styling required for public appearances; publicity expenses consisting generally of the cost of having photographs taken and sent with a descriptive commentary to producers, presenters and the media, and including the cost of advertisements in publications; transportation expenses related to an engagement in a situation where the engagement is out of town, in which case boarding and lodging would also be allowed; large instrument or equipment that must be carried to the engagement; dress clothes that must be worn from a residence to the place of engagement, or one engagement follows another so closely in time that a car or taxi is the only means by which the engagement can be fulfilled; the cost of filming and recording performances where required for their preparation or presentation; telephone—

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC

Is the list much longer, Mr. Dimitrakopoulos?

5:05 p.m.

Director General, Income Tax Rulings Directorate, Legislative Policy and Regulatory Affairs, Canada Revenue Agency

Costa Dimitrakopoulos

I've gone through about half of it.

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC

Okay. I think that we've enough of the flavour of it. There's a fulsome list that is included.

I'm going to ask this of both of you, but I'll ask separate questions.

Briefly, Mr. Dimitrakopoulos, could you talk to me about what tax measures specific to artists exist in other jurisdictions in Canada, that are not included federally? I mean, are there more favourable tax measures in Quebec than there are federally in terms of the provincial treatment? Are there more deductions or different ways to treat it?

5:10 p.m.

Director General, Income Tax Rulings Directorate, Legislative Policy and Regulatory Affairs, Canada Revenue Agency

Costa Dimitrakopoulos

I'm not as familiar with deductions in other jurisdictions. I am aware that Quebec has set up a type of income averaging, but I'm not in a position or it's not within my mandate to speak about whether something is better or worse. That would be a tax policy question.

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC

No, I'm not asking you about better or worse. I was asking about the distinction, but I understand.

Thank you so much.

I could ask Mr. Beaulieu this question.

Mr. Beaulieu, you have certainly prepared tax returns for people in Quebec and people in the rest of Canada in the past. Could you tell us about the differences and tell me whether some things are better at the federal level or in Quebec? Should the federal government model how it treats certain things on how Quebec does it?

5:10 p.m.

Chartered Professional Accountant, As an Individual

Philippe Beaulieu

There are several measures adopted by the government of Quebec that would be deserving of harmonization by CRA. For one thing, there is the purchase of an income-averaging annuity for arts income, which is a very important measure that allows exceptional income to be averaged over several tax years. That kind of harmonization would really be important.

As well, there is a measure that allows for a tax deduction for all copyright income. That reduces the taxation of that type of income, which is derived from the use of artists' work.

It really would be a good thing if those measures applied Canada-wide, to all artists who work to promote our culture.