Canadian Heritage Committee on Nov. 25th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome, everyone, to meeting number 140 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage.

Before we begin, most of you in the room know the rules, where to keep your device, etc., so that you are not going to be causing any kind of static feedback for the interpreters. Remember to read that little card. You have that little decal on which to put your equipment.

This meeting is taking place in a hybrid format. I think you know the rules. Speak through the chair. Whenever you are asking a question, it must go through the chair. Do not speak unless the chair recognizes you. Don't take any pictures of the Zoom, etc. Most of you know the drill by now.

I would say that Ms. Tait knows the drill by now.

We shall begin.

I'm going to try to give you the 30-second thumbs-up or shout-out, or whatever you want to call it, to let you know that you have only 30 seconds left when we're doing it.

I welcome Catherine Tait, of the CBC, here today.

You know you have five minutes, Ms. Tait. Welcome.

[Catherine Tait, President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Broadcasting Corporation]

Thank you, Madam Chair and members.

This is my fifth appearance before this committee in 12 months. Each time, I have urged you to consider the fragile state of Canada's media industry and the importance of a strong public broadcaster, so we can ensure that Canadians continue to have access to reliable and credible news and information produced by Canadian journalists, so that they can continue to discover and celebrate Canadian creative talent, as well as the excellence of our amateur athletes, and so that Canadians can hear and connect with each other no matter where they live.

There are those who insist we don't need a public broadcaster anymore, that there are thousands of other choices, but are those choices operated by Canadians for Canadians? Are they dedicated to independent journalism with clear standards? Are they investing in Canadian programs? Are they committed to showcasing our musicians and our writers in English, French and eight indigenous languages?

Ninety years ago, a Conservative government made a choice: to invest public money to create a Canadian public broadcaster—to protect culture for Canadians. The threat then was from American radio stations spilling over the border.

Today, the threat is much greater. A flood of foreign services coming in, and 94% of all digital revenues flowing out of Canada to foreign companies. What is at risk is the survival of a Canadian-owned media and the information Canadians need.

Other countries continue to invest in their public media, and they invest much more than we do, an average of $78 per capita, more than double that in Canada.

CBC/Radio-Canada now costs Canadians $32 per year, less than $3 a month. In fact, now is precisely the time we should be investing more in public broadcasting, not less.

We have shared with you documents outlining some of the ways CBC/Radio-Canada serves Canadians.

Here's what's at stake: News and information the majority of Canadians trust; the largest investor in the creation of original Canadian programs; the most popular radio shows and podcasts; a digital platform used by 21 million Canadians each month for access to news with no paywall.

That is CBC/Radio-Canada. It is paid for by all Canadians in order to serve all Canadians, regardless of where they live or what language they speak. At a time when other Canadian media are cutting back; when Canadian writers, creators, musicians and athletes have fewer opportunities to get noticed and build a career, how does cutting public broadcasting actually make things better for anyone?

Ken Whyte is a conservative writer and the founding editor of the National Post. He recently said this about defunding CBC:

It might make some conservatives feel better emotionally...but it's not going to do anything for the culture of the country, for our understanding of Canada, for the ability of the various parts of the country to communicate with and understand one another, or even argue with one another. It's just going to make things worse.

I urge this committee to talk with Canadians. Talk with people in Trois-Rivières, St. Boniface, Prince Rupert, Charlottetown and Rankin Inlet who rely on CBC/Radio-Canada for their news. Talk with the Canadian authors who see their books become bestsellers after they've been profiled on Canada Reads and Le combat national des livres. Talk with Canadians who depend on us during a pandemic, wildfires or floods to find out what they need to know to protect their families.

I've had the privilege of speaking with Canadians across the country over the past six years. I know the majority love their public broadcaster. Some do not, and I've met with them too. We listen to their suggestions on how we can be better, putting journalists in communities where other media have left, launching local podcasts and finding new ways they can share their views about what's important to them. We will continue to transform our services to meet their needs, because we exist to serve all Canadians.

If I've learned one thing during my tenure, it is that CBC/Radio-Canada is a lifeline that links this vast country. Losing it will not make Canada better.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Now we're going to go to the question and answer session. We will begin with a six-minute round, starting with Mr. Kurek.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Ms. Tait, thank you for coming back to committee.

I find it interesting that, in your opening statement, you did not mention the reason you were called back to this committee, and that is the $18 million in bonuses that CBC paid out.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

I have a point of order, Madam Chair.

There are two things. One is that the sound online is cutting in and out. We're not getting half of what's being said when Mr. Kurek is speaking. I don't know what we can do to fix that, but it's.... I'm going to stick to that one. It was very hard to actually hear what he was saying. I don't know if it's his mic or if it's the room. It was happening a bit with Madam Tait, but with Mr. Kurek it was pretty hard to decipher.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Should we suspend a bit until we figure this out?

I'm sorry, Damien.

I'm sorry, Ms. Tait.

Yes, let's go ahead and find out what's going on.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

We're resuming.

Begin from the top, Mr. Kurek.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Ms. Tait, thank you for joining the heritage committee again.

I find it interesting that, in your opening statement, you didn't mention the $18 million in bonuses that were paid out. Certainly, when I speak to and hear from thousands of Canadians—

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

I have a point of order, Madam Chair.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

If the game is that the Liberals simply don't want to talk about the bonuses, at least they could be honest about it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Mr. Kurek, there's a point of order.

What is it, Mr. Noormohamed?

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

There are two things I would now say. One is that Mr. Kurek knows me well enough to know this is not about playing games. We did have and we still seem to have some crackling on the audio; I'm pointing that out.

However, I also want to make sure we are clear about what the mandate of Madam Tait's appearance was today. I understand it was from the House order in respect of the cuts to the CBC, not about bonuses. I just want to be clear about what it is the discussion today is supposed to be about.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you, Mr. Noormohamed.

It's back to you, Mr. Kurek.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

It certainly wasn't a point of order. Again, it seems as though the Liberals are terrified, like Ms. Tait, to talk about the $18 million in bonuses that were awarded to individuals at the CBC.

Now, Ms. Tait, in your opening statement you asked for more money, yet the last time more money was awarded to the CBC, it went to bonuses. As a show of leadership from the top—this was asked to you before, but you didn't answer clearly, so I'm going to give you another opportunity here today—will you categorically reject any bonus that is offered to you, as your tenure as the CEO of CBC comes to a close?

[Catherine Tait]

Madam Chair, there were a number of questions in that question, if I may—

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

I heard that, and I really want to correct the idea.... If the committee wishes, I can reread the motion. It is about cuts to the CBC and the impact of defunding the CBC. That's one of the things that were clear. It was not about bonuses, because, if you recall, Ms. Tait was here not too long ago talking about bonuses. I will read it. It says, “including how the Liberal threat to cut funding led to hundreds of CBC-Radio-Canada job cuts and the effects on smaller communities, as promised by the Leader of the Official Opposition”, and, “the consequences of defunding the CBC”. That's clearly what the motion says.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Look, I think it is clear that Ms. Tait, in her opening statement, asked for more money. Conservatives do not believe that, if the leader at the top of the organization is unwilling to make a commitment, to say that they won't accept a bonus of what could be to the tune of hundreds of thousands of dollars of taxpayers' money, at a time when people are being laid off.... The last time the CBC asked for more money, they paid out more bonuses.

Ms. Tait, to you today, out of respect for the organization that you've led over the last number of years, will you reject, if offered, a taxpayer-funded bonus?

[Catherine Tait]

Madam Chair, I've appeared at this committee now five times, and I believe that I have more than adequately responded to questions about performance pay. I do want to correct the record. The funding that CBC/Radio-Canada received, the $42 million, went to save 454 jobs of the 800 jobs forecasted as needing to be cut. Just to be clear, that money went to save jobs.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

Just imagine, you say that it went to save jobs, yet still $18 million in bonuses were paid out: $18 million of taxpayers' money went out in bonuses. Ms. Tait, your tenure at the CBC is coming to a close at the beginning of January. Will you commit to not taking a taxpayer-funded severance at the conclusion of your tenure?

[Catherine Tait]

Let me say, just to clarify, the $18 million was an obligation that the corporation had to the 1,180 unaffiliated employees. We have a payroll of close to $900 million. If the member believes that we make decisions about performance pay in a frivolous fashion, I have to correct him. These dollars on payroll are put in place at the beginning of every year, so to suggest that funding that was provided at the end of the year was used in that way is, simply, incorrect.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

It was $71,000, on average, per executive. That's more than the average Canadian makes. Madam Tait, you make more than the Prime Minister makes, yet you refuse to reject a taxpayer-funded severance. Again, I ask the question to you today, Madam Tait: Will you reject a severance paid for by taxpayers at the conclusion of your term as CEO of CBC?

[Catherine Tait]

As I've told this committee repeatedly, I have not received performance pay since 2021-22 and, given the terms of my compensation, like all other GIC appointees—every president and the CEO of every Crown—that includes salary and performance pay. I leave that decision to the government.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

You could reject that today, yet you won't.

How much time do I have left?

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

You have one minute, but I've been witnessing.... I think I've heard this question asked at least 10 times at this committee in the past. Ms. Tait has answered it. Would you like to move on, Mr. Kurek?

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

Thank you, and I will move on by simply saying this. Madam Tait, you said in your opening statement that you speak to Canadians on a regular basis. Internal emails that you sent, which were accessed via access to information, suggested that there's momentum growing on the “defund the CBC” movement. Given your appearance here today, as has been the case over the last number of appearances that you've made, it's certainly not surprising as to why that is the case. There's decreased trust in the public broadcaster. Revenues are down. Ad revenue is down, and, most importantly, there are fewer viewers watching your programming. Do you have any regrets, Madam Tait, over your tenure as CEO of the CBC?