Canadian Heritage Committee on Nov. 25th, 2024

[Catherine Tait]

I want to make a few remarks about those frustrations, particularly those related to the need to log in.

We now live in a digital world. What would be the point of a digital service if you accessed it without having to log in? The strength of our digital services is that, by gathering Canadians' data, they enable us to learn about their needs every day—

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

In that case, Ms. Tait, I'm going to clarify my example.

Many online services of the CBC and the Société Radio‑Canada, the SRC, aren't included in the subscription, and people have to pay to access them. I'm going to add that frustration to the inconvenience of having to log in, which can be justified because it's a way to gather data.

[Catherine Tait]

So you're talking about subscriptions and advertising.

Some $400 million in CBC/Radio-Canada's budget comes from commercial revenues. That means that we would then have to replace that $400 million.

In addition, in the case of advertising in television services, for example, we would then have to fill several minutes with programming.

I believe that my predecessor said nearly seven years ago that it would take somewhere between $400 million and $500 million to avoid having to make that kind of payment.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

I understand why we're talking about $400 million to $500 million because we would be offsetting the advertising revenues that we would have a raised. We would add content production capacity in order to fill those minutes. That's a very important point.

However, we aren't necessarily talking about doing that overnight and replacing that $400 million or $500 million.

That brings me back to the fact that our public broadcaster is one of the least costly per person among countries that have a public broadcaster. It costs us approximately $33 per Canadian per year.

[Catherine Tait]

That's it.

The average cost among all countries is $78. That's a difference of approximately $45.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

If we increased that contribution to $45 per person, people wouldn't feel those frustrations. Fewer people might ultimately agree with that statement because there would be somewhat less frustration with the public broadcaster's offerings.

Earlier you said that it's impossible to withdraw funding from the CBC without having a major impact on the SRC's French-language services. I'd like to get a few more details on that. I'm thinking, for example, of the production styles that would generate more regular revenue. You mentioned the Olympics earlier, but that event takes place once every two years, including both summer and winter games.

In real terms, in everyday life, what would be the impact on variety program production and so on if we were to cut funding to the CBC as a vehicle for Quebec and francophone culture?

[Catherine Tait]

As I said earlier, English and French services are closely connected and interdependent. Of course, there would be no direct impact in the case of an entirely francophone program such asEn direct de l'univers.

However, there would be a problem if funding for Radio‑Canada were weakened by cuts to the CBC's funding. As I said, the CBC and SRC are interdependent, which means that budget cuts would be made to all production, our own and that of independent producers.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you very much.

I now go to the New Democrats and Niki Ashton.

You have six minutes, Niki.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I'd like to welcome Ms. Tait back to our committee for what I imagine is the final time we'll have these discussions in this capacity.

Your regular appearances, Ms. Tait, at our committee reflect how much Canadians care about CBC/Radio-Canada. You can't represent a rural, northern or indigenous community, or live in a part of Canada that is francophone, and not understand CBC/Radio-Canada's importance.

For many of us, the CBC has a history of being the only one to cover our stories, but the CBC's reliance on major cities to sell smaller community stories is a problem. Its board's obsession with rewarding high-level executives' exorbitant bonuses while at the same time cutting jobs is a problem.

The CBC is our public broadcaster. It doesn't exist to mimic private broadcasters, who prioritize bonuses and profits over the jobs of their employees and over local broadcasting. Canadians deserve better from the CBC.

We in the NDP do not support the full-frontal attacks that we've seen from the Conservatives against the CBC. The CBC is critical to Canada, to a vital democracy and to all of our communities, but we need to see the CBC do better. It's time to ban bonuses at the CBC. It's time to invest in local and regional broadcasting, including in regions like mine, which hasn't had a permanent CBC presence and has had its station shut down for years.

I would end off by saying, Ms. Tait, that I hope your successor will take this feedback as guidance going forward. We have too much at stake when it comes to the possibility of losing the CBC.

In terms of local media, we've heard here in northern Manitoba that the CBC has finally found somebody to perhaps begin in the new year, filling a position that's been left vacant for quite some time in our region. This is very positive news, except that we know that the last time that was promised, the contract lasted only two months. I'm wondering about this person who is slated to take on this CBC position in the new year. Is their contract for longer than two months? How long can we expect them to stay? Obviously, for us in the north, and I would say in Manitoba generally, we hope this is a long-term commitment from the CBC.

[Catherine Tait]

I would just say to the member that, as you well know, we've been trying very hard to fill that position in Thompson, Manitoba. It is near and dear to our hearts, and I very much expect and hope that this next person taking the job will be there for a longer period. The person who was there before did not have a short-term contract. The person made the choice to leave.

The commitment is there, then. Again, as we said a couple of weeks ago, CBC will be committing to hiring 25 new journalists in locations across the country, focused on the west and the north, because we recognize the importance of our connection with local communities. As I've said many times, the force of CBC and Radio-Canada is our proximity to Canadians across the country. Therefore, you absolutely have our commitment to do so and to continue to do so, if I may speak for my successor.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

We certainly welcome this new person, and we hope your successor and the CBC will ensure that regions like ours have the support necessary for their CBC employees to thrive and stick around for the long term, as ought to be part of CBC's mandate.

Moving on, you've been clear that due to the Liberal threat of a 3% cut across the board, you had to lay off workers. The Liberals can go on and on all they want about the threat Conservatives are to the CBC, and they're not wrong, but it is a basic fact that this Liberal government's actions meant that hundreds of Canadians don't know where their next paycheque is coming from. Meanwhile, high-level executives got bonuses almost double what the lowest-paid workers at the CBC got.

If you could change anything about your time at the CBC, would you have given up those bonuses to save the jobs of CBC employees?

[Catherine Tait]

I just have to correct the record, Madam Chair. We were very clear in our December 2023 statement that we were forecasting a $125-million deficit, and that was due to a number of factors, including pressures as a result of coming out of the pandemic, with the inflation and rising costs of production, and increasing declines in advertising revenue linked to television.

Yes, we also faced a 3% cut from the federal government. That was a forecast, and I should be very clear that it was a forecast over three years. The first year, it was about $11 million. That was not the deciding factor that tipped the situation for us. It was a piece of it, yes, indeed. There was also $21 million in integrity funding linked to the pandemic that we also lost that year.

Just to be very clear, when we look at our budget, we look at a holistic situation and not single items.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

However, my question is whether you would have given up those bonuses to save the jobs of CBC employees?

[Catherine Tait]

As I've said before, performance pay is part of the annual salary calculation that represents about $900 million of payroll. It is separate from the ongoing budgeting that we were doing. The $42 million was used very directly to save 454 jobs.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Ms. Tait, I think the question here is—

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Ms. Ashton, your time is up.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

It was unfortunate—

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you. You'll have another round.

It's a five-minute round for the Conservatives and Liberals.

Mr. Jivani, you have five minutes, please.

[Jamil Jivani, Conservative, Durham, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Ms. Tait, we've heard you speak about wanting more money from taxpayers. We've heard you talk about job cuts. I'd like to ask some questions about how your business, the CBC, is currently operating. With the billion dollars of taxpayer subsidies you have, the CBC has to compete with the private sector, including in hiring talent. Is that correct?

[Catherine Tait]

No, we don't compete with the private sector. We live in an ecosystem with the private sector. We are complementary to the private sector.

[Jamil Jivani, Conservative, Durham, ON]

Okay. That sounds like a fancy way of saying “compete”.

Does that include having to hire broadcast executives and on-air talent in the marketplace or the “ecosystem”, as you referred to it?

[Catherine Tait]

For sure, there are situations in which on-air talent might go to CBC, as they often do to CTV or to TVA.

It is an ecosystem. People move. We want to have those kinds of opportunities for all our journalists.

[Jamil Jivani, Conservative, Durham, ON]

To attract talent, would you have to pay market compensation to people you want to bring into the organization?

[Catherine Tait]

As I've said before, we aim for what we call P50, which is about 50% of market. At no time are we trying to beat the market; we average the market.

[Jamil Jivani, Conservative, Durham, ON]

Okay.

You make about half a million dollars, plus you haven't ruled out bonuses, so maybe more than that. Would market rates mean that executive vice-presidents may be on salary for over $1 million a year?