Canadian Heritage Committee on Nov. 25th, 2024

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

On the one hand in this committee, we see the Liberals, who espouse their support for the CBC, yet they were the ones to threaten cuts to the CBC that led to job losses. It's also the same Liberals who approved 18 million dollars' worth of bonuses at a time when Canadians are struggling and so many journalists at the CBC have lost their jobs.

On the other hand, we have the Conservatives, who have attacked the CBC and made a campaign around defunding the CBC a key part of their platform, an attack that is truly an attack on our communities and the vitality of our ability to tell our stories, and of course, in terms of our Canadian identity. The reality is that Canadians deserve a CBC that is accountable to them and a CBC that is in touch with them on all fronts, and that means banning executive bonuses.

At a time when jobs are being cut at the CBC, it's important that we see leadership from our public broadcaster that doesn't prioritize executive bonuses at the expense of jobs and local broadcasting. We also need to see a public broadcaster that invests in local journalism. I've often talked about my region, which has not had a permanent CBC presence despite having a CBC station for years, so commitments to local and regional broadcasting ring hollow when the CBC has been incapable year after year to get the job done and make sure that our region, which services 85,000 people, has a CBC presence.

We certainly hope that the new person we're expecting to come on board in the new year has the support necessary from CBC Manitoba, from our public broadcaster, to make sure that our region is heard. We also want to make sure that other local and regional broadcasters have the support necessary to do their work. The CBC isn't about getting the news out of Toronto, Winnipeg and Vancouver. It's about all of us.

Therefore, as we see a new CEO coming in, as we expect to hear a new mandate from the CBC, our hope from the NDP is that we see a strong CBC/Radio-Canada that ensures that we're not seeing executive bonuses, that we are banning executive bonuses, and that we are in fact hiring journalists, local broadcasters, and opening up stations that have been shuttered, ensuring that gaps, including in media deserts, are being filled—

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Please wind up, Ms. Ashton. Thank you.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

—and that we're also seeing that the CBC stands up for all of us.

I'm concerned that your tenure, Ms. Tait, has not seen that kind of commitment. Canadians deserve a strong CBC, a strong Radio-Canada, and we will continue to fight for that. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

I don't think there was a question there, Ms. Tait, but did you want to respond? You may, quickly, but we're running out of time for this round.

Go ahead.

[Catherine Tait]

I just want to speak of the tenure, and I want to make a couple of points.

During my tenure, I am so proud of the work that we have done. We have launched CBC Gem, a video streaming service that is devoted to Canadian content, news and local news. We have launched Ohdio at Radio-Canada, the top Canadian-operated audio streaming service in the French language in this country. We have tripled digital revenues. We have, for the first time, knocked the Olympics and the Paralympics out of the park.

You're telling me I have said enough. Okay.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Guys, we have 10 minutes, which means two five-minute slots.

I'm going to really cut everybody off if they go beyond their time.

We have Mr. Scheer for two and a half minutes, and then I understand you're sharing it with Mr. Kurek for two and a half.

I'm going to cut you off, guys. All right?

[Andrew Scheer, Conservative, Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK]

I'll get right to it.

Ms. Tait, would you categorize your term at the CBC as a success?

[Catherine Tait]

Yes.

[Andrew Scheer, Conservative, Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK]

You believe that you've left it in a better place than where you found it?

[Catherine Tait]

Absolutely.

[Andrew Scheer, Conservative, Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK]

Okay, so I'll just go through a few things, and I just have to say, you must have quite the echo chamber there if you believe that, because, when we're talking about how out of touch the CBC can be with Canadians, you need only to look at the bonuses that you paid out during an affordability crisis to executives and senior management while laying off the frontline staff, something that even Peter Mansbridge called the CBC out for.

When we look at all the metrics, all the key performance indicators, ad revenue overall is down, and trust is down. Despite polls that the CBC might have commissioned for itself, independent third party organizations that analyze this indicate that trust in the CBC fell 17% in just four years. Viewership is down to less than 3% in prime-time markets. That means during prime time, when Canadians are going into their living rooms to watch what is on TV, 97% of Canadians say no to the CBC, tune it out and move on to other things.

Based on all of that, Ms. Tait, I just want to thank you, on behalf of the Conservative Party, for your efforts in helping us promote the campaign to defund the CBC. I think outside the Conservative caucus, you have been the most successful person in creating the demand to defund the CBC. The $1.4 billion of taxpayers' money doesn't go for an online streaming service. It goes to a whole host of products, from which Canadians are choosing other sources of information and entertainment.

Again, I don't really have a question there. I just wanted to say thank you for your efforts to help us defund the CBC.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Ms. Tait, did you have a comment?

[Catherine Tait]

I must say that it really does shock me, the extent to which certain members of this committee—and the sub-ins, or whatever you call them—seem to make me the target and throw insults at my tenure at CBC/Radio-Canada in order to discredit the organization.

The organization has stood for 90 years. We know that 79% of Canadians say they believe that CBC/Radio-Canada should continue. To have this somehow be proof that we should be defunding the CBC is ridiculous.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you, Ms. Tait.

I understand that Mr. Kurek is not sharing the time with you, Mr. Scheer. Go ahead.

[Andrew Scheer, Conservative, Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK]

I just want to point out that those were not insults. It may be insulting to hear that ad revenue is down, but that is just a fact. It may be insulting to hear that 97% of Canadians choose to watch things on TV other than the CBC, but that is just a fact. It is just a fact that trust in the CBC has fallen by 17% in just four years.

When I had a chance to ask you about trust in the CBC, one of your responses back was that the number of corrections that CBC News issued was up. That was proof or some kind of evidence that the CBC could be trusted. I look at it the other way. When you have a falsehood broadcast on the national news, and then a correction follows up a few days later, or in an online post, that doesn't instill confidence and trust in the CBC. It points out that the CBC allows things to get to air before doing proper vetting, validation and fact-checking.

It may be insulting to hear the dollar amounts about executive bonuses, but I'll tell you who was really insulted. It was the frontline workers who were laid off when the CBC was claiming it didn't have enough money to keep that entire workforce and who then read in the paper—or read in a news source other than the CBC, because they probably weren't watching it either—that senior management and executives all got bonuses.

Those are just facts. Everything I have listed off comes from third party, independent sources who have indicated all that.

Again, I just want to say thanks for your help in our efforts to defund the CBC.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you, Mr. Scheer.

I now go to the Liberals for the last piece.

Mr. Noormohamed, you have five minutes.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

I want to begin by thanking Mr. Scheer for that deeply unserious monologue and for popping into the committee without having heard any of what had happened before. I guess this is a pattern we're seeing from Conservatives, of trying to bring U.S.-style misinformation. I guess that's just second nature for some of those folks, and that's fine.

I think it's also important that if we're going to start casting aspersions.... I suspect there are members of the Conservative Party who probably want to know where their money went during the tenure of Mr. Scheer's leadership, but we're not here to discuss that.

What I would like to talk about first, Madam Tait, is facts, because they seem to be in short supply from our friends opposite today. We heard this monologue of things that haven't gone well, because they have chosen to manipulate data in a particular way. I'd like to go back and ask specifically and sharply about platforms. Can you talk about CBC's size and scope across all platforms? They seem to think that television broadcast is the only thing that media companies are measured by. Can you talk about all platforms?

[Catherine Tait]

During my tenure, CBC.ca and Radio-Canada.ca have become the number one digital news destinations in the country. Our .ca news sites are used by 21 million Canadians.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

For the folks who may not understand what “number one” means, does that mean above all of the other private broadcasters?

[Catherine Tait]

That means above all other Canadian services. Google and Facebook are still higher than the Canadian services, but we are number one in terms of news sites.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Just to clarify, the public broadcaster is doing better than the private enterprises that are in the same Canadian private business in the sector. Is that correct?

[Catherine Tait]

Not on all platforms, but I'm talking specifically about news.

With respect to Tou.TV, the streaming service of Radio-Canada, it is number one in the French market. CBC Gem ranks number two behind Crave.

Listen, when we talk about performance, today, television is one piece of a very complex multiplatform operation, and you can slice it and dice it every which way.

I would like to, if I may, Madam Chair, just read a little letter that I received this morning. I remembered that MP Waugh had some letters from Saskatoon. This one literally came in over my desk this morning.

The writer said she had listened and watched CBC for over 75 years. She has only two channels on her radio, CBC Radio One and CBC Radio 2, and she relies on CBC TV News for truthful and unbiased reporting. She listed some of the things she thinks that CBC does right: news, local, national, investigative, the arts, music, live concerts, French, ethnic, comedy shows, movies, coverage of historic events, children's programming and literature reviews. She said she may have missed some of the programs, but the calibre of the hosts, journalists, presenters and technicians was so excellent. She wanted me to pass on to all of the staff at CBC her grateful thanks for providing her the world in her armchair, free, unbiased, informative and pleasurable. She sent her regards as a faithful listener and said, “Let's hope the CBC continues for years to come.”

I won't give her last name, but her first name is Judith.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Thank you, Ms. Tait.

I was just reflecting on what we used to watch when we were growing up. Because we didn't have cable, we watched the CBC, and there were a lot of lessons that Mr. Dressup taught us. One of them was about being truthful and about understanding all of the things around us, so that we could decide how we were going to show up.

I find it disappointing that a lot of the conversations we have had with you have been around a base set of “facts” that actually are not grounded in reality at all. I mean, this whole notion of performance pay versus bonuses is something we have litigated a million times at this committee. The whole question of how the CBC is performing relative to other platforms when it comes to news in this country has been tossed around like a political football.

I want to end my questions with you today around the whole concept we have heard from the Conservatives. Mr. Scheer laid bare today that there is an active campaign to defund the CBC. I think it's important for us to defend the CBC.

I want you, in very brief terms, to say to Canadians and Quebeckers what defunding the CBC, as Mr. Scheer wants to do, will actually mean for small communities, for large communities, for the news ecosystem in this country and for Canadians at large.

Could you summarize that in one minute or less?

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Actually, she does not have one minute. She has 30 seconds.

I know you can do it, Ms. Tait.

[Catherine Tait]

Okay, here we go.

The dangers of defunding CBC include denying 80% of the population local news, 95,000 hours of local news radio programming and 45,000 hours of Canadian TV content. It means denying tens of thousands of independent producers, creators, musicians, performers and technicians their livelihood. It means denying the north access to each other and to the south. It means denying French minority communities their connection to their language. It means cutting at least 3,500 jobs.