Canadian Heritage Committee on Dec. 2nd, 2024

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

I see.

That represents approximately 1 million inhabitants.

Is that correct?

[Brigitte Wellens]

That's correct.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

You mentioned that 17,000 out of a population of 1 million inhabitants, 1.7% of the population, might be affected by cuts to or cancellation of the CBC's funding. However, do those 17,000 persons regularly watch CBC programming or do they listen to or watch anything else? It isn't clear that those 17,000 people only watch or listen to CBC programming.

[Brigitte Wellens]

That's obviously not the case.

I unfortunately have no data for you, but I can tell you that, especially from a broadcasting perspective, the CBC is an essential news source for those people.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

What's interesting is that the organization you represent is the equivalent of our organizations on the francophone side in the other provinces outside Quebec. Your situation is exactly the same as that of our francophone minority communities. You're an anglophone minority community, and you're definitely one of the only ones in North America.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

You have 30 seconds.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

This large region including Quebec City, Chaudière—Appalaches, the region of Est‑du‑Québec and Saguenay—Lac‑Saint‑Jean is truly unique in North America and home to large a francophone majority. We're very proud to be represented here in Ottawa. Francophones form a majority in that region, but the minority is really large.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you very much.

I'll now go to the Liberals for five minutes.

We'll go to Ms. Anna Gainey for five minutes.

[Anna Gainey, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Westmount, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you very much to all of the witnesses for being here this morning.

I would like to ask my questions of Ms. Wellens.

I was looking at a report recently from, I think, QUESCREN, which is an organization, as you may know, out of Concordia University. It was a study that showed that, since 2008, 104 Quebec media outlets, including newspapers, radio and TV, have folded, merged or become online only, and about 22% of them were English or bilingual news outlets.

Depending on how you look at the statistics, Quebec's English-speaking population could be anywhere from 10% to 15% of the population. At 22% of those closures, there was a disproportionate impact, I would say, on the English-speaking minority, not only in Quebec City and the Rive-Sud, as we were just discussing, but actually in the English populations that live in small communities across the province of Quebec.

It's very important to underscore, again, as you have, the importance in particular of the radio—CBC Radio One—in terms of information and as a reliable, trusted source of information for these communities, not just in Quebec City but actually across the province of Quebec.

Could you elaborate a little on the experience beyond Quebec City exclusively in this regard?

[Brigitte Wellens]

Yes, absolutely, Ms. Gainey. Thank you for that question.

In regions like the Lower North Shore, or even the North Shore, Internet access is spotty at best, or non-existent. We're talking about places where, in the summertime, you cannot get from one place to another by road. There is no road that connects these people together. We're talking about communities that are completely disconnected from everything, including reliable access to Internet.

CBC is the only source. I'm surprised and shocked by that data. I'm saddened. I saw it disappear in our community. We no longer get the Gazette or any other English print media that used to come into the region. As I mentioned earlier, the Quebec Chronicle-Telegraph is the only print media that we have access to in Quebec City. In regions across the province, I think there's The Spec on the Gaspésie coast and there's a local newspaper in the Estrie region, but otherwise, in terms of English media, we're talking about CBC Radio One. Years ago, we had Global, which had a spot in Quebec City, but that disappeared a long time ago.

It's critical that we have sources that are close to the ground. When I say “boots on the ground”, I'm talking about local communities. There's an English-language minority in every administrative region across this fine province, and these people need that local news to be able to carry out their civic duty, to be informed on important challenges and issues that are taking place close to their home and to be able to have an opinion and exercise their democratic rights.

CBC is part of the fabric that makes up our communities. Yes, we're small in numbers and we may not have the critical mass to have our own local private media, but that's why CBC is so important. I need to remind everyone that the survival of our community depends on that fact. Section 42 of the Official Languages Act says that CBC has a mandate to protect that information, and they have a responsibility to French and English communities across Canada.

[Anna Gainey, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Westmount, QC]

I agree. I think that's an important point. Thank you for raising it, along with the Official Languages Act, across the country.

As Madam Tait, and, actually, Madame Bouchard, underlined last week, there is a notion among some that we can defund the CBC and protect Radio-Canada or protect the francophone offering. I think they both very clearly stated that these two organizations are very closely linked. They share offices; they share resources, and you simply cannot defund or harm the CBC without also undermining Radio-Canada, which is another important piece. Therefore, we would actually be doing further damage to a very fragile system that exists through Radio-Canada and CBC in Quebec and the English community there as well. It's not lost on me how important CBC is to the minority language group in Quebec.

Some say that if we were to get rid of the CBC or Radio-Canada, we would see other news sources thrive and flourish. Since 2008, 104 Quebec media outlets have folded or merged. Have you seen new news sources thriving or flourishing? Have we seen other things try to take that space and fulfill that role in our democracy and in our communities in Quebec?

[Brigitte Wellens]

None whatsoever, because the cost of doing so is impossible. You'd be hard pressed to find someone who would be successful in carrying out what the CBC has managed to do for decades for Canadians across the country. I don't think it would be possible for someone else to just come out of the woodwork and create a local news media like that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you very much.

That round is up, Anna.

I now go to Mr. Champoux for two and a half minutes, please.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair. Two and a half minutes is a short period of time.

Mrs. Sims, earlier you said that you were opposed to funding for the CBC. You called it corporate welfare. At least that's what I heard. However, when I go to the Canadian Taxpayers Federation's website, I don't see any denunciation on your part of the tax breaks the government grants to Alberta's oil companies.

Since you're opposed to corporate welfare, I imagine you're absolutely scandalized by the billions of dollars that the federal government grants to the oil companies, which make billions of dollars in profits.

I'd like to hear your views on that.

[Kris Sims]

We're opposed to all corporate welfare, period. It doesn't matter what company it is; we're opposed to it. In fact, if you go to our website, taxpayer.com, you will see several articles in which we are taking that to task, no matter what company it is.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

I see that you really condemn the carbon tax, but not so much the major funding that the federal government grants to the oil companies, pipelines and so on. We can eventually come back to this, but that's not the subject of the study today.

Earlier you said that journalists were misleading Canadians. You often collaborate with media outlets such as True North and Rebel News. Do you think they are independent and rigours media outlets?

From the standpoint of journalistic independence and news quality, how do you think they compare with what you call the mainstream media, such as the CBC and others?

What's your opinion on this kind of journalism and news organization?

[Kris Sims]

I'm having a bit of trouble hearing you, but I'll try my best to answer. Once again, we are here to point out the cost of the CBC, that nearly nobody is watching it and that journalists shouldn't be paid by the media.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

I'll repeat my question, Mrs. Sims. I think you definitely heard it.

I asked you for your opinion of the media outlets you regularly collaborate with, such as True North and Rebel News, to name only two. It's not hard to see. It's online.

I just want to know whether you consider those media organizations rigorous and reliable from the standpoint of journalistic independence and information quality, as journalists from traditional media organizations such as the CBC, Global News and CTV, for example, can be.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Give a short answer, please.

[Kris Sims]

Through the Chair, I'm sorry. I think that is a personal opinion. I have worked with outstanding journalists from all outlets, actually. It doesn't matter if they're with True North, Rebel or Western Standard—or, in fact, the CBC, CTV or Global.

It's been both independent and alternative media—which is largely personally, directly or self-funded, or, in some cases, also speaking with the CBC in earnest about a lot of issues—and outlets like CTV and Global. There are good journalists in all of those newsrooms, but they shouldn't be paid by the government.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you very much

I'll move on now to Ms. Ashton. You have two and a half minutes, Niki.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

My first question is for the Friends of Canadian Media. The Conservative leader, we know, is ideologically driven to destroy CBC/Radio-Canada. He's even willing to go on far-right podcasts that host hate groups like the Proud Boys to discuss it.

Conservative minds hanging out with the same people who promoted a group that stormed the U.S. Capitol and that we, as a country, have designated a terrorist group isn't a problem, but spending less than a dime a day to ensure that Canadians across the country can have access to quality journalism is.

What sort of planning should be in place to ensure the viability of CBC/Radio-Canada so it can survive Conservative cuts better than it has survived Liberal cuts?

[Marla Boltman]

As I mentioned before, we think the key is long-term, sustainable funding. It's impossible to run an organization as large as the CBC on a 12-month schedule. It's a constantly moving target.

I think the idea that the CBC's entire budget is simply a line item in the federal government's budget is incredibly.... Quite frankly, it seems ridiculous. If we can do anything to change that, we should, for all of the reasons I stated before. When you're working on a 12-month schedule, how do you execute on a vision and how do you meet objectives?

Also, as we said in our opening remarks, and I'll repeat myself, governance is fundamental. Appointments to the board should be far more independent. We think that having independence with the board and with the appointment of the CEO will help with the issue the public has with transparency and accountability, and that will make us stronger.

Also, this is very important. If you look at the BBC, it has a charter process whereby its mandate is reviewed every seven to 10 years. That includes performance commitments, public accountability and secure funding. Just as you take your car in for service every six months or 3,000 kilometres or whatever it is, we have to have regular check-ins on our national public broadcaster. That will ensure its viability in the long term.

As we've stated before, the CBC needs to get back into the business of local and regional news in a big way, with more boots on the ground in smaller communities. That will have a big impact on whether the CBC survives and thrives.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Thank you.

I have a quick question, Ms. Wellens.

You talked about how critical it is for your community and across the regions of Quebec. You mentioned the Gaspésie. There are a lot of parallels with folks who live here in northern Manitoba, who rely particularly on CBC Radio to get their news.

I'm wondering if you can share how critical the work of our public broadcaster is. To what extent does it need to be supported, so that all Canadians, whether it's linguistic-minority communities like yours or those living in northern and rural Canada, get news they can rely on?

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Give a short answer, please.