Canadian Heritage Committee on Dec. 2nd, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

I will now go to Martin Champoux.

Martin, you have six minutes, please.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I too want to thank our witnesses for joining us today to talk about this subject, which can give rise to considerable debate. I'm delighted we have two very interesting witnesses.

Mr. Robertson, I too am going to ask you some questions, if I may. You talked about terrorist groups being glorified at rallies. Lately, I'm hearing a lot about the rise in anti-Semitism, but we're also seeing a rise in Islamophobia.

Since October 7, 2023, do you believe there are as many anti-Israel protests as there are anti-Palestinian, Anti-Arab or Islamophobia demonstrations per se? What's your opinion as an interested observer? Do you note a rise, too, in anti-Semitism and Islamophobia in Quebec and Canada?

[Richard Robertson]

To begin, it's my appreciation that, no, there haven't been as many anti-Palestine demonstrations as there have been anti-Israel demonstrations.

The recommendations that we've put forth before the committee today would work to combat all forms of hatred and discrimination, including anti-Semitism and Islamophobia. It's important that any recommendations endorsed by this committee are able to impact and are able to combat all forms of racism and hatred, and are able to confront the rise, in all forms, of racism and hatred. That's why we stylized our recommendations in a way that would enable this legislation to be used to protect all minority groups here in Canada and to protect the rights and freedoms of all Canadians.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

I completely agree with you. No form of racism is tolerable, acceptable or less serious than any other. On that note, we completely agree. However, I still feel uncomfortable when I hear, for example, that shots were fired on a Jewish school in Montreal. I have a lot of difficulty hearing about demonstrations in residential areas known for having a high Jewish population in Toronto or Montreal. I'm trying to find similar anti-Palestinian or pro-Israel incidents, for example, in other kinds of neighbourhoods.

I come back to what you said in your opening statement. We hear that Hamas is being glorified at demonstrations and that really upsets me because I know that most people who demonstrate go with good intentions. They aren't taking part in them because they have hostile intentions towards Jews, they're going to condemn a situation they find very troubling. Those rallies are all too often plagued by extremist groups or troublemakers. The police seem to find it very difficult to control that, but society also seems to believe that propaganda, which is quite unhealthy, if we want to hold a fair debate on the fight against intolerance and racism.

Do you think that some police forces are doing their job with less rigour than others? We've heard criticism about the Montreal police, following demonstrations at the convention centre last week. In Toronto too, the police are heavily criticized. The Quebec City police went out of their way, this week, to tell people not to demonstrate because they would be arrested.

If it's that easy, do you think it's because the Montreal and Toronto police forces are slacking on the job a little?

[Richard Robertson]

Police forces across the country have done an admirable job in responding to an unprecedented situation. Parliament needs to further equip our police forces with additional tools to help them combat the nefarious actions that we're seeing, as you properly characterize them, infiltrating these protests.

The right to freedom of expression of all Canadians who are attending these protests is compromised by the actions of a few who wish to corrupt these protests and use them as an opportunity to glorify terrorism. That's why it's so important that we take urgent redress in order to outlaw that, so we can continue to have protests, and some of the strain that is being put on our police forces can be removed.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Under section 319(3)(b), a Criminal Code provision you're familiar with, an individual can willfully promote hatred, inciting violence and even murder under the guise of religion, because that's their religious belief. This is protected under the Criminal Code.

Canada is not criminalizing organized hate groups fast enough. Do you think that the government is dragging its feet? Do you think that section 319(3)(b) should be abolished, as a Bloc Québécois bill proposes to do? Do you think we should quickly and systematically criminalize groups that infiltrate peaceful demonstrations to spread hate?

[Richard Robertson]

There should be no ability for anyone to escape prosecution under section 319 under the guise of their position as a religious authority here in Canada. That's something that B'nai Brith Canada has been quite clear about. We need to revisit section 319 of the Criminal Code to ensure that the exemptions under the provision are not being used as a “get out of jail free” card. This is part of the balancing act. It's important that we—

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you, Mr. Robertson.

I'm sorry, Martin, but time is up.

I will now go to Niki Ashton, for six minutes, please.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair, and thank you to our witnesses.

Grand Chief, you spoke powerfully about your experience, the experiences of indigenous peoples, and the experiences of first nations that you represent here in our region. I know that on many occasions you have also spoken very powerfully about your experience as a survivor of the residential school system. You've spoken in the past about the trauma and abuse you and so many survivors were subjected to. You've talked about the need for Canadians to know this dark history, and its impacts today.

However, we know there are many who seek to downplay this. My colleague, Leah Gazan, has put forward a bill to make it clear that residential school denialism is a form of hate. Unfortunately, there are many who are troubled by that proposal. For those who seek to downplay or deny the devastating impacts of residential schools, the way in which it was used as a tool of genocide, can you use your freedom of expression to talk some sense into them?

[Walter Wastesicoot]

Thank you.

I was listening to the discussion going on here just now and reflecting on the legislated racism that exists in this country.

You can start with the Indian Act. An effort to amend the Indian Act was Bill C-31. That in itself is a legislated genocide. Someday, if my daughter or granddaughter decides to marry somebody of a different race, their children will lose their identity. That's racism. It was supposed to respond to the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. However, in effect, it is legislated genocide in this country. Nobody speaks about these issues because they have become normal for Canadian society.

You talked about terrorism. I was terrorized at an institution in this country for many years. Everybody turned a blind eye to that. When will our people stop having to go to court to be heard and respected? You're sitting around here talking about terrorism in this country, and for certain groups to be put on a list and recognized as terrorists. Well, that's happening to our people, too. When we advance our interests, all of a sudden we're criminalized. We're turned into boogeymen. There is something wrong with that picture.

When I talk about the scars on my body, I'm talking about scars from these institutions of racism and genocide.

Thank you.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Thank you so much, Grand Chief, for these powerful words you've shared, for your ongoing, powerful advocacy on behalf of first nations, and for what you've shared with respect to the threat of free expression here in our committee.

I want to ask a quick question of Mr. Robertson.

Recently, Library and Archives Canada, which reports to the Minister of Canadian Heritage, decided to continue to shield the names of the Nazis identified by the Deschênes commission who were let into Canada in the years following the Holocaust.

Do you support this committee calling on the Minister of Canadian Heritage to instruct Library and Archives Canada to release the names of the Nazis in the Deschênes report?

[Richard Robertson]

Library and Archives Canada must release the names from the Deschênes commission report. All documents related to Canada's Nazi past must be released to our public so we can learn and educate ourselves about the trauma inflicted by Canada on the survivors of the Holocaust, and so that, as a society, we can grow and learn from the mistakes of our past.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Robertson.

Hearing that, I would like to revisit a motion that I presented two weeks ago with respect to this very issue.

I want to begin by talking about how it's ironic that we're talking about freedom of expression when it comes to one of the most fundamental issues that this committee has had to deal with, which is Library and Archives' refusal, under the Minister of Heritage, to publicize the names of Nazis in the Deschênes report. This deliberate policy to not release the names of known Nazis who were consciously and directly admitted to Canada in the early 1950s must be repealed.

I cannot think of what this ongoing refusal to release the names means to survivors and the families of survivors. I think of the experience of my own family and the people who fought the Nazis, and how historic Jewish communities in Greece and across Europe were entirely wiped out, not just by Nazis, but also by collaborators.

I cannot believe that in Canada in 2024, we are still discussing whether or not the Canadian government should bring to light the names of Nazis who engaged in the Holocaust and the systematic murder of Jews, Poles, Roma and many others.

With International Holocaust Remembrance Day coming up, what better time than now for Canada to own up to its dark history? This is about freedom of expression. This is about freedom of information. We need the Government of Canada and, particularly, the Minister of Heritage to change course and direct Library and Archives Canada to release the names.

I would like to revisit this motion, and I hope all members of all parties will support it.

I move that, given that the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage regrets the continued protection given by the Minister of Canadian Heritage to the estimated 900 Nazis who were allowed to enter Canada after the Second World War by refusing to release their names and refusing to listen to organizations representing victims of the Nazis, the committee invite the Minister of Canadian Heritage to instruct Libraries and Archives Canada to release the names of the 900 Nazis before International Holocaust Remembrance Day on Monday, January 27, 2025, and that this motion be reported to the House.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Ms. Ashton, as you know, this motion was brought before this committee and the debate was adjourned. In order to put this motion back on the table and be considered by this committee, I have to call a vote of the committee asking if it wishes to bring back a motion on which debate was adjourned.

I'm going to ask the question. It's not a debate. I'm going to ask the question of the committee.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Wetaskiwin, AB]

I just want clarity on what we're voting on right now. We're not voting on that motion.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

The motion was brought before this committee and the debate was adjourned. In order to bring it back, we have to get the committee to agree that it can come back to the table. It's the same motion.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Wetaskiwin, AB]

If someone were to disagree with this motion right now, it wouldn't kill the motion. It would just mean that we don't discuss it right now. Is that correct?

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

It would mean we don't discuss it right now. Ms. Ashton is free to bring it back any time she likes, and the committee is free to decide whether it wishes to listen to the motion.

(Motion negatived: nays 6; yeas 5)

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Now we'll return to the question and answer session. I think Ms. Ashton has finished, so we'll go to the second round.

The second round is a five-minute round.

I'll begin once again with the Conservative Party and Monsieur Gourde.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mr. Robertson, first, I'd like to go back to comments Mr. Champoux made when he talked about the heads of the Toronto, Montreal and Quebec City police services. The Quebec and Lévis police services have a special way of operating and are extremely proactive. I want to congratulate them. In the Quebec City region, there's no problem with freedom of expression; the problem stems from the mayhem caused in the name of freedom of expression. That's not tolerated in the Quebec and Lévis metropolitan region.

The chief of police signalled to demonstrators that they will undoubtedly be arrested and charged if they cause chaos. I think that's right and proper since they have had fair warning. In our region, mayhem isn't an issue during rallies because the police are doing their jobs. They warn demonstrators and the latter demonstrate respectfully because they know that, otherwise, there will be consequences.

Mr. Robertson, do you think that freedom of expression comes with the freedom to cause chaos? Do you believe that it's more acceptable when the police set guidelines?

[Richard Robertson]

No, I do not think that all the conduct we have seen on Canadian streets would be considered protected under the charter right to freedom of expression. That is why we've put forward our recommendations to this committee, in an effort to have this committee work to ensure, when balancing and exploring the right of freedom of expression, that our legislation properly delineates what is acceptable conduct and what is not. Hopefully, the outcome of that will be providing clarity to law enforcement across the country as to what conduct is criminal and what conduct is not acceptable or not protected under the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

Mr. Robertson, when police cars are burned and windows smashed, it seems obvious that the line has been crossed. When only one, two or three people are arrested, even though 10,000 to 15,00 demonstrators took part in the chaos, do you consider that to be complacency by police forces or fear of the crowd's reaction?

[Richard Robertson]

I believe we can remove any debate of that by strengthening the provisions in the code surrounding terrorism and surrounding these rallies. If the impetus of a rally is to glorify acts of terror and to support those who engage in terrorism, whether domestically or abroad, then we can provide additional clarity to our law enforcement. It would be sort of cutting things off at the head.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

I think that, in Canada, there are professional demonstrators. For example, those individuals can be arrested up to five times; they are repeat offenders.

Should professional demonstrators get harsher sentences? Currently, they're arrested and, often, released the very same day. Ultimately, there are no arrests and no consequences.

[Richard Robertson]

Yes, as I intimated in the previous answer to this committee, I believe there are certain elements within our society who are jeopardizing the right to freedom of expression of all Canadians by abusing that privilege. It's important that we separate those who are wishing to abuse and take advantage of our fundamental freedoms from those who are trying to lawfully exercise their fundamental freedoms.