Canadian Heritage Committee on Dec. 11th, 2024

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I would just note that there have been a number of times when the regular chair occupant—

[Hedy Fry, Liberal, Vancouver Centre, BC]

I have a point of order.

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Martin Champoux]

Dr. Fry, Mr. Kurek is raising a point of order. I would ask you to wait a bit, please.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

Thank you, and with respect, I am speaking on a point of order, Dr. Fry.

With respect, Chair, the regular chair occupant has, on a number of occasions over a number of meetings, in some cases interrupted questions posed by the Conservative members of this committee, which is ironic when we're talking about a study on freedom of expression.

Certainly I believe the direction that Mr. Jivani was taking is fully within the bounds of the discussion that we are having, and if some members—

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Martin Champoux]

Mr. Kurek, that is debate, not a point of order.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

—are unhappy with that, they are certainly welcome to use their time to intervene in that regard.

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Martin Champoux]

Mr. Kurek, that is debate. I have taken note of that.

Dr. Fry, did you want to speak to this point of order?

[Hedy Fry, Liberal, Vancouver Centre, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I would comment on it, but that would be debate. I would comment on my ability as a chair to intervene when I think a line of questioning to a witness is disrespectful; it's my duty to make sure that intervention happens.

I would like to point out that Mr. Jivani mentioned what went on at a meeting that was in camera, and he's just breached the rules of in camera by doing so.

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Martin Champoux]

Thank you, Dr. Fry.

Mr. Jivani, I would remind you that, yes, the meeting on Monday was in camera, and what was discussed there—

[Jamil Jivani, Conservative, Durham, ON]

It was my mistake, actually. It happened last Wednesday when Ms. Fry suggested that our public witness, Bruce Pardy, was making irrelevant comments in a discussion about the administrative state. That was last Wednesday, not on Monday. I did not address anything that was in camera.

I appreciate that Ms. Fry wants to play a game here, but we're telling the truth about what she's been doing as chair of this committee. That's my point.

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Martin Champoux]

Mr. Jivani, I'm going to stop you right there. This has become a debate on this issue. Every intervention so far has been more akin to debate than a point of order.

Mr. Jivani, you have the floor. You have four minutes and 40 seconds left.

[Jamil Jivani, Conservative, Durham, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Marcoux, finally I get to ask you my question. I apologize for the delay.

Let's go back to the concerns that many Canadians have about the creation of a massive bureaucracy through Bill C-63. I'd be curious if other Canadians who share your concerns, your objectives concerning the protection of children.... Do you appreciate why they are not favourable toward Bill C-63's expansion of the bureaucracy? Do you see why there are concerns about that posing a threat to freedom of expression in our country? Would you be able to find common ground with Canadians who share your concerns related to the protection of children online but do not appreciate the way that Bill C-63 proposes to go about it?

[Jacques Marcoux]

As an organization, our concern is what is effective: what an effective bill or law looks like or what effective regulation looks like. The details as to whether or not it's appropriately funded, whether it's the right structure or whether it's best to hand this over to the CRTC aren't really things that we're interested in weighing in on. What we want to see is a law that provides a system-wide safety net to kids and, quite frankly, any Canadian who uses these services. We want to see this to be rolled out and be effective. We want to also catch up to the same protections that other kids in other countries currently have. That's really our chief concern at this time.

[Jamil Jivani, Conservative, Durham, ON]

Thank you for that answer, Mr. Marcoux.

I'd like to cede the rest of my time to my colleague Mr. Kurek.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Marcoux, you're not in the room here, but we have an Amber alert that just rang, and I certainly pray that the child is found soon, safely and quickly.

It speaks to how live of an issue protecting kids is. I spent some time at the justice committee discussing Bill C-270, a bill that would help with ensuring that there's that accountability for the distribution of non-consensual explicit material and would ensure that it is taken down and that there would be responsibility for both those who would share it and the companies that in some cases make it just incredibly difficult for victims. There are heartbreaking stories, and I shared some of that testimony during my time at the justice committee.

Here we are discussing freedom of expression. We have an Amber alert, which highlights how this is such a live issue. I'm wondering if you can comment specifically on Bill C-270 with regard to making sure that when it comes to protecting kids, there is accountability for those who would share explicit material without consent—whether it be children or adults, maybe intimate partners or the like—and ensuring that there's accountability for both those who would share and the companies that have profited in many cases off that material.

[Jacques Marcoux]

Mr. Kurek, just so I'm clear, isn't Bill C-270Mr. Viersen's private member's bill?

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

Yes.

[Jacques Marcoux]

I'm not incredibly familiar with the details of the bill, but I do know the broad strokes of the bill. I think it is fundamentally a good example of working upstream and integrating a systems approach to protecting people online. You impose obligations on service providers or anyone who wants to make content available to the general public, especially higher-risk content like adult pornography.

A lot of those measures—as I said, I'm not speaking specifically, just generically—are fundamentally things that we as an organization agree are good approaches. These are things like ensuring that any video that's put online, especially on a pornography site, is consensual: The person not only consented to being recorded in the first place but also consented to it being distributed, and then also continued to provide consent for that to be distributed, including from all the co-actors in the video, to ensure that everyone within the actual content provided their consent.

I think those are fundamentally great ideas.

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Martin Champoux]

Thank you very much, Mr. Kurek.

It's been over five minutes now.

It's the Liberals' turn. I'll go to Mr. Noormohamed for five minutes, please.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Senator, we began this conversation with a conversation about the Senate. I think it's important to take a minute or two at the top to correct the record on some of the misleading information that was provided.

As most Canadians with knowledge of the Constitution know, senators are appointed by the Governor General on the recommendation of the Prime Minister. Bert Brown, Ted Morton, Cliff Breitkreuz, Link Byfield and Mike Shaikh were all elected by Alberta voters. They were not appointed to the Senate by Stephen Harper. He appointed 59 senators, some of whom ended up in jail and some of whom ended up with all kinds of other questionable records of their own.

Senator, have you ever been accused of any wrongdoing since your appointment to the Senate?

[Kristopher David Wells]

Certainly not. I can say, as someone new to the Senate, what remarkable colleagues I have, who come from all walks of life. They bring their lived and professional experience to bear on issues that matter the most to Canadians. They work closely, of course, with the House of Commons to pass legislation that will meaningfully impact and improve the lives of Canadians.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Do you belong to a political party?

[Kristopher David Wells]

I do not. I currently sit as a non-affiliated senator.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Are there any political parties represented in the Senate?

[Kristopher David Wells]

I believe there's only one.