Canadian Heritage Committee on April 27th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

I call the meeting to order.

I acknowledge that this meeting is being held on the unceded traditional territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe peoples.

I welcome you to the 17th meeting of House of Commons Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage.

Have all the people come into the room in the interim, Madam Clerk?

[The Clerk of the Committee, Ms. Aimée Belmore]

We are still missing three members, Madame Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Pursuant to the motion adopted by the committee on Monday, January 31, 2022, the committee is meeting for its study of emblems of hate. Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format. Some of you are appearing virtually and some are in place. For those people who are in the room, I would like to remind you of the Board of Internal Economy's request of March 10, 2022, that all those attending the meeting in person must wear a mask, except for members who are at their place during proceedings. Even then I think it's important to wear a mask.

I want to make a few comments for the benefit of the witnesses. Members, please wait until I recognize you by name before you speak. If we are having trouble with interpretation or any such thing, let us know right away so we can fix it and get on with the meeting. Of course, you're not allowed to take pictures of this meeting at all.

For those on Zoom, you have a choice at the bottom of your own device to move from English to French. There's an interpretation icon there. Just remember that all comments should be made through the chair.

For members in the room, you know the drill: If you wish to speak, raise your hand. For members on Zoom, please use the “raise hand” function on your screen. The clerk and I will try to manage your requests and give you priority in the order you put your hand up.

In accordance with our routine motion, I am informing the committee that all witnesses have completed the required connection tests in advance of the meeting.

I now would like to welcome our witnesses.

The witnesses are, from the Canadian Anti-Hate Network, Bernie Farber, chair; from the Centre for Israel and Jewish Affairs, Richard Marceau, vice-president; and from the Centre for the Prevention of Radicalization Leading to Violence, Roselyne Mavungu, executive director.

We also have, from the Friends of Simon Wiesenthal Center for Holocaust Studies, Michael Levitt, president and chief executive officer, who has a colleague with him.

From the Hindu Federation, we have Mr. Roopnauth Sharma, president; from the Sarah and Chaim Neuberger Holocaust Education Centre, Daniel Panneton, manager; and from Urban Rez Solutions Social Enterprise, Roderick Brereton and Farley Flex.

Each witness has five minutes to speak. I will give you a 30-second warning so that you can wrap up. If you don't get to finish everything you have to say, don't forget that there will be a question-and-answer session in which you can add the pieces that you didn't get to finish.

We're going to begin with Mr. Farber for five minutes, please.

[Bernie M. Farber, Chair, Canadian Anti-Hate Network]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Thank you, all members of the committee, for inviting me to participate.

I will try not to take up too much of your time, other than just to preface my remarks by saying that I speak to you in two capacities—one as the chair of the Canadian Anti-Hate Network and the other in a much more personal capacity as a child of a Holocaust survivor. My father was the sole survivor of his Polish town, the sole Jewish survivor out of 750 Jews. That means that his wife, his two children, his seven brothers and sisters, and all the Jews of Bothki, Poland, were murdered as a result of Nazi genocide.

The swastika, the crooked iron cross, is what we came to view as one of the most evil symbols in modern history. We address today the need to understand the importance of these symbols. I do so as a child of the kingdom of death. I had no paternal family whatsoever, and that one particular symbol is a symbol that drove evil, drove murder and drove genocide.

Such symbols, whether they are the Nazi swastika or the KKK emblem, such as the blood drop or the Confederate flag, are unmistakable symbols of hate that show support for genocide and slavery or grossly minimize their violence.

Canada already has laws against the promotion of genocide—section 318 of the Criminal Code—certainly disallowing and making hateful comments illegal, as well as the wilful promotion of hatred under section 319.

In our opinion, hate symbols already contravene these laws because of what they represent and communicate, but law enforcement needs this spelled out for them, so let's spell it out for them.

Any legislation that we decide, or that you decide here, needs to be very explicit and tight around the following issues. Only symbols that target identifiable groups should be eligible to be banned, in order to prevent the legislation from being “webinized” against people and groups who advocate against an inclusive, equitable democracy and society. Identifiable groups have been spelled out in the Criminal Code. They're identifiable groups by race, creed, colour, nationality or sexual orientation.

There must be exceptions for good faith educational use, as well as for opposition to the banned symbols. For example, you don't want to ban books like Maus, which is an excellent source for understanding the Holocaust, or crossed-out swastikas, where we're saying “no swastikas”. We have to be careful about that as well.

This will be a very carefully thought out law.

In the end I want us to consider the victims, consider those who have survived great genocides, great mass murders and slavery. Consider how they feel when they see the symbols that in fact targeted them in the first place.

This is our time. Hatred has really engulfed much of the world. We've seen it here in Canada. We've gone from hateful words to hateful symbols to actual assaults and murder. It's time for us to take a stand. It's time for legislators to take a stand and it's time for us to tell police authorities that these symbols are symbols of hate and they have to act upon them.

Thank you very much, Madam Chair, and I will be happy to answer any questions at the end of this session.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you, Mr. Farber. You were one minute under the time, which is excellent. Thank you.

Now I am going to go to our next witness, Richard Marceau, who is from the Centre for Israel and Jewish Affairs.

[Richard Marceau, Vice-President, External Affairs and General Counsel, Centre for Israel and Jewish Affairs]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Could you add Mr. Farber's remaining minute to my time?

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Well, no, you only have so many minutes. Sorry about that.

[Richard Marceau]

Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

You know the rules. You used to be on these committees.

[Richard Marceau]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you for inviting me.

I'm sure you already know that hate crimes, radicalization and extremism are on the rise in Canada. As Jews, we are particularly concerned about this phenomenon.

We Jews are particularly vulnerable to this rise in hate.

Statistics Canada's numbers from 2020 show that while Jews represent 1% of the Canadian population, we are the target of 62% of police-reported hate crimes targeting religious minorities—62%.

As Canada's special envoy on preserving Holocaust remembrance and combatting antisemitism, Irwin Cotler, has said, we haven't seen this much Jew hatred since the end of the Second World War.

We are acutely aware of the threats to our safety. With hate against us rising, the sight of someone openly waving the Nazi flag, the Nazi symbol, on the steps of the Château Laurier during the truckers' convoy brought deep feelings of horror and fear to our community.

I will put it bluntly: When I see someone waving the swastika, what I understand is that this individual wants me, my children, my family and my community dead.

There is nothing subtle about that.

Sadly, that was not the only instance of a hate symbol displayed openly during the truckers' demonstration, and the truckers' convoy was not the only instance of hate symbols being displayed openly on Parliament Hill.

Now is the time to act. Now is the time to act swiftly, and it is time to act smartly. By “smartly”, I mean to say, for example, that the swastika we're talking about, the symbol that came to symbolize, as Bernie Farber said, hatred toward Jews was also, and is also, a sacred and holy symbol for Hindus, Buddhists and Jains.

Any decision to ban this symbol must also protect legitimate use of it, because a growing number of Canadians now see it a sacred symbol. I co-wrote an article about it with a witness who will be testifying a little later. It was published in a Canadian English-language newspaper.

Some argue that waving Nazi symbols is already banned under hate speech legislation, and I agree with Bernie Farber on this. There is an argument for this position. However, clarifying this would be a good thing.

We need to act swiftly and understand what leads people to brandish hate symbols, because simply banning them would be like putting a bandaid on an open wound.

Federal, provincial and municipal governments must work together effectively to fight hatred and radicalization. We need to understand what's behind them.

Somebody does not wake up one morning thinking, “Wow, I'm going to drive through downtown Ottawa waving a Confederate flag and a noose or a Nazi flag” and say that's a good thing. There's indoctrination behind this. We need to understand and work on that part as well.

I'd like to raise another important point. Hate is hate is hate, no matter what the source is.

Here, I take a bit of exception with the wording of the terms of reference for this study.

Much of the focus has been on hate symbols of white supremacist groups, and rightly so, but there are other groups that are very hateful. For example, Hamas and Hezbollah, groups that are banned in Canada, have been implicated in attacks on Jews, not just in Israel but around the world. Both are listed as terror organizations. Why do I bring them up? Their flags have been seen in the streets of Montreal, in front of Queen's Park and in front of this very Parliament.

When I see those symbols, those flags, I react the same way I would if I saw a Nazi flag: An individual waving those flags wants me, my children, my family and my community dead.

We must therefore say yes to banning hate symbols. It's one tool to add to a toolbox that needs a wider range of tools.

I hope to have the opportunity to continue this discussion during the question period.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you very much, Monsieur Marceau.

I want to move now to our next witness, Roselyne Mavungu, executive director of the Centre for the Prevention of Radicalization Leading to Violence.

Please begin. You have five minutes.

[Roselyne Mavungu, Executive Director, Centre for the Prevention of Radicalization Leading to Violence]

Good afternoon, members.

I would like to begin by recognizing the spirit of fraternity that presided over the signing in 1701 of the Great Peace of Montreal, a peace treaty that established lasting peaceful relations between France, its indigenous allies and the Haudenosaunee confederacy. The spirit of fraternity behind this treaty is a model for the Centre for the Prevention of Radicalization Leading to Violence.

As previous witnesses have said, hate crime is on the rise. In Statistics Canada figures and reports, we can see that crime on the whole has decreased 10%. Hate crime, on the other hand, has gone up 37%. In addition, the number of hate crimes reported by police against certain racialized communities is also up considerably when we look at the Black, East and Southeast Asian, South Asian and indigenous communities. The official figures are likely conservative, as we know that some communities have little trust in law enforcement and are therefore reluctant to report hateful acts.

The Centre for the Prevention of Radicalization conducted a study last December that highlighted the importance of online hateful acts, which are the most common type.

We're seeing it in symbols, too. Recently in Ottawa, the Confederate and Nazi flags were seen at the trucker protests. Just 24 hours after International Holocaust Remembrance Day and on the National Day of Remembrance of the Quebec City Mosque Attack and Action Against Islamophobia, Nazi flags were flying in public on Parliament Hill.

Not long ago in Mount Royal, Quebec, huge swastikas were drawn in the snow and on a hockey rink. We've seen many other hate signs, expressions and symbols in certain public places.

As part of a process with partners, the Centre for the Prevention of Radicalization came up with one solution to tackle the hate problem and created the Small Illustrated Guide to Hatred in Quebec. This interactive educational tool identifies the different hate signs, symbols and expressions in a Quebec context. It's universally accessible, and it helps raise awareness while fostering prevention and educating people on the issue.

A tool of this kind fosters prevention in three ways.

First, in a more targeted way, it supports communities and environments in their fight against hateful acts.

Second, it provides tools for front-line workers, including educators, street workers, police officers and community workers. These tools enable them to identify the symbols and understand their meaning and potential danger, so that they can recognize them and act as prevention stewards in their respective communities.

Finally, on an individual level, anyone reading the guide can engage and take action against hatred using our suggestions form. If someone can't find what they know to be a hate sign, symbol or expression in the guide, they can contact us and suggest that we add it.

In conclusion, as far as solutions—

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

You have one minute, Ms. Mavungu.

[Roselyne Mavungu]

Hate symbols have multiple and shifting meanings. Take the Norse runes, for example. They were innocuous symbols that became hate symbols when recovered by the Nazi movements. So depending on the context, we need to understand that signs and symbols can have different meanings, and they might be hateful but they also might not be.

The most important thing is to educate the various stakeholders, that is, police officers, teachers, politicians and businesses, about the impact of using such symbols. Problems can arise if they use symbols perceived as hateful by other communities. Therefore, given the multiple and shifting meanings of hate symbols, it's hardly appropriate to ban them across the board.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you very much, Ms. Mavungu.

Now we go to the next witness, who is from the Friends of Simon Wiesenthal Center for Holocaust Studies.

Mr. Levitt or Ms. Kirzner-Roberts, you have to share the five minutes. I just wanted you to know.

Thank you.

[Jaime Kirzner-Roberts, Director of Policy, Friends of Simon Wiesenthal Center for Holocaust Studies]

Thank you.

I'm the policy director at Simon Wiesenthal. It's a real pleasure for me to be speaking with you all today. Thank you so much for inviting us to participate.

I'm going to be focusing my remarks largely on the symbol of the swastika today. Yes, it is only one of many dangerous hate symbols that our society contends with, but it is also one that reflects some of the worst, most evil and most dangerous ideas that human beings are capable of conjuring up.

Today, here in Canada, we are too often confronting this symbol of hate. Almost every single day we receive reports from schools that swastikas have been painted on walls and on books in the library. We see it painted on synagogues and other Jewish spaces. We see it on signs and flags at protests and rallies. Perhaps most often, we see it on social media.

The swastika is used as a symbol to intimidate and to terrorize. The meaning rings out loud and clear. To those in our community who survived the Holocaust, the swastika is a sharp memory of what it means to be stripped of one's humanity and to become a slave and a number. It's a reminder of what it is like to never get a chance to say goodbye to one's loved ones. To those from Canada's great generation who fought so courageously to defeat Hitler, the swastika is a reminder of their years of sacrifice and horror, when they did not know whether they would ever come home again. To the families of the 45,000 Canadians who lost their lives in that fight, it is a symbol of unimaginable loss.

I agree with my colleagues from our community, Mr. Farber and Mr. Marceau that it is already illegal in Canada to promote hate and advocate for genocide as per sections 318 and 319 in the Criminal Code, yet we continue to see the swastika proudly displayed outside of neo-Nazi clubhouses. We see it used as a vile political statement to demonize political leaders, including members of Parliament. Last May, during the escalation of conflict between Israel and the terror group Hamas, we saw it used at anti-Israel rallies to degrade the Jewish nation and its people.

Could our hate laws be written more clearly so that law enforcement has a more explicit directive with respect to the inclusion of hate symbols in the conception of illegal hate speech? Yes, absolutely, but the solution must go deeper. Hate crimes are growing dramatically in our country from one year to the next. The Jewish community remains one of the most likely minority groups to be victimized by it.

At the same time, we are seeing hate crimes continuing to stand out from other kinds of crime as the least likely to be cleared, the least likely to see law enforcement identify a perpetrator and the least likely to result in charges and convictions. This is nothing less than justice denied, not just for the direct victims of hate crimes but for our entire society and our values as Canadians.

Clarifying our hate laws to explicitly include hate symbols could be part of the solution to growing hate crime. The solution also requires new resources for hate units throughout our law enforcement services. It requires new opportunities for cutting-edge training for our police so they can build stronger and more convictable cases against hate criminals.

This is, by the way, one area of programming that we at Friends of Simon Wiesenthal Center are building and offering to increasing numbers of police every year.

More than anything, solving the problem of rising hate crime comes down to the political will of our leaders, such the legislators here today, to see hate criminals held to account.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

You have one minute.

[Jaime Kirzner-Roberts]

I'm so grateful to all of you who have shown the will.

I, and all of us at Friends of Simon Wiesenthal, look forward to continuing the discussion with you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you very much, Ms. Kirzner-Roberts.

Now we will go to Mr. Sharma from the Hindu Federation for five minutes.

[Roopnauth Sharma, President, Hindu Federation]

Madam Chair and members of the committee, thank you for this opportunity.

I confess that I've never found throughout history that there was a solution that was presented by anyone and that was accepted totally as to how to eradicate hate. I certainly know that it cannot be removed by words, nor can it be removed by bullets and bombs. It will certainly be addressed by good education, good wisdom. In the world that we live in, we need political will with wisdom, laws to be followed, and I think, most importantly, we need education for our general society.

I'm here today because we Hindus support any laws that will make it clear that people who go against the law of mankind and promote hate of any form must be addressed by the law of the land. Every effort must be made to refine the law to address these issues however they may be concealed, or be attempted to be concealed, under different emblems.

I have a particular concern that the term “swastika” has been used very, very grossly across the meeting today. This country must be educated to understand that when we use that term “swastika”, we are talking about Sanskrit terminology. It was not something that belonged to Germany. The hakenkreuz is the term that Hitler intended for Nazism, and we would like to see that terminology used when referring to that emblem at all times. When you refer to it as a Nazi symbol and use “swastika”, you're offending the Hindu community and you're creating a form of Hinduphobia. We Hindus are affected by this tremendously.

We agree with new laws, but we want you to be very cautious. We want to caution lawmakers that when they come to set laws in place, that implementation is a key factor.

I want to use a reference with respect to all and with no disrespect to anyone. When the same-sex law was made, Parliament agreed on it and on the implementation. Those who perform marriage ceremonies, as I do, came to the sad recognition that the marriage certificate no longer refers to bride and groom; it says applicant and applicant. We implemented a law to give someone a benefit and took away a value that others consider very valuable, one whereby bride and groom are considered.

My caution to this committee and to the lawmakers is that when you decide on this law, be conscious.

I have a statement I would like to read. Hopefully the time will permit it.

As Parliament considers Mr. Julian's bill, Bill C-229, an act to amend the Criminal Code banning symbols of hate, it must make sure that the context of the use of the Nazi swastika is carefully considered. We cannot allow a Hindu emblem of goodness to be erased as we take steps together to stamp out hate.

The bill, which we support, should be amended to ensure that a proper use of swastika for religious purposes by Hindus, Buddhists, Jains and Zoroastrians is protected, celebrated and remains completely legal in Canada. It should be amended to clarify that the evidence demonstrates that Nazi hakenkreuz is a weapon of hate, not a matter of free expression. Whatever the political events of the day, it is absolutely possible—indeed, essential—to combat Jew hatred while ensuring the rights of Hindu, Buddhist, Jain and Zoroastrian Canadians and respecting their benevolent and sacred symbols. Let us together take the steps to celebrate our religious freedom and unity in confronting Nazism, or any form of hate that is projected by any group in any form.

Today the statistics tell us that hate crimes are growing, while violent crimes or other crimes are diminishing. It tells us what our society is facing. With the demographic change, and as Canada opens its doors to more immigrants, we the lawmakers, we the politicians, we the people need to be conscious that the terms we use and the banners we stand under have an impact on the people who may be newcomers or residents of this country, and we need to protect all equally at all times.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you very much, Mr. Sharma.

I will go next to the Sarah and Chaim Neuberger Holocaust Education Centre, Daniel Panneton.

Mr. Panneton, you have five minutes.

[Daniel Panneton, Manager, Online Hate Research and Education Project, Sarah and Chaim Neuberger Holocaust Education Centre]

Thank you to the honourable chair, distinguished members of the committee and my fellow presenters.

Many were dismayed over the course of the “freedom convoy” protest in Ottawa when they saw unambiguous hate symbols such as the Nazi swastika and the Confederate flag carried on Canadian streets. However, these were not the only hateful symbols observed by anti-hate experts.

Contemporary hate is not always as easy to identify as a Nazi swastika or a Confederate flag, and groups in Ottawa that displayed obscure, ambiguous and contextual hate symbols were able to do so with few noticing. This is by design, as the propaganda that many contemporary hate groups and movements deploy relies on a number of strategies to dodge moderation and avoid public censure. These include irony, humour, misdirection, mischaracterization, aesthetic choices and pseudo-scholarship.

Memes, in many ways, are the political flyer of the 21st century. They're easy to produce and share, and memes and the associated culture around them have become very important communication tools.

On social media, hate peddlers constantly come up with new memes, symbols and slogans to shroud their beliefs. Part of this strategy involves the appropriation of anodyne symbols and assigning hateful meaning. Many of these symbols, like the OK hand gesture or Pepe the Frog, utilize plausible deniability to deflect charges of hate and set the accuser up for ridicule.

This process was captured by a controversy that surrounded a specific meme during the convoy. In February, member of Parliament Ya’ara Saks spoke on the House of Commons floor about the “Honk Honk” memes going around on pro-convoy social media pages, describing it as a stand-in for the phrase “Heil Hitler.” The statement resulted in a deluge of mockery and harassment, attacking Saks for making what was characterized as a baseless accusation aimed at tarring all convoy supporters as Nazi sympathizers.

The vast majority of participants in the protest were not sympathetic to Nazism or fascism, but there were known hate group leaders and members present who were trying to capitalize on the moment. In certain contexts, “Honk Honk” does mean “Heil Hitler,” but from the beginning the symbol was designed to be a trap.

In February 2019, users of the infamous website 4chan began posting a variation of Pepe the Frog wearing a rainbow wig, red nose and bow tie that became known as “Honkler”. The meme was meant to characterize a sense of nihilism in the face of an absurd and dying society. That month, a user stated that “Honk Honk” was going to be the next OK hand gesture, and users were quick to connect the acronym to “Heil Hitler” and openly posted about their hope that the mainstream media and the Anti-Defamation League would take their bait and describe it as a hate symbol.

The memes that emerged from the “freedom convoy” developed independently from the anti-Semitic clown memes on 4chan. However, memes, as a medium, build upon existing imagery, and the “freedom convoy” memes were quickly contaminated by the visual vocabulary and content of the previously created, explicitly anti-Semitic examples.

After the events of the convoy, many supporters and participants are even more alienated and perhaps radicalized. The concern is that participants and supporters may now be finding themselves in increasingly extreme spaces online and off, where they may be encountering hateful material like “Honk Honk” imagery that celebrates the Holocaust. Because of the similarity between convoy memes and the content on more extreme spaces, the individual in question may be more receptive to the hateful ideas than if they were presented with unfamiliar visuals.

This is only one example that appeared in the convoy, which triggered an explosion of meme production in both extreme and mainstream spaces. Further, the convoy is only one place where such symbols appeared and developed. Memes and symbols that rely on ambiguity and plausible deniability can be found in a number of political communities and groups.

I wish to make it very clear that I do not advocate the criminalization of symbols like the “Honk Honk” meme. This would involve a massive violation of free speech and would be incredibly difficult to enforce, given the ever-changing nature of online communication and plausible deniability.

There are a number of organizations doing excellent work to address contemporary hate through research and education, many of which are represented here today, but when compared to the networks and resources that are available in Europe and in the United States, Canada’s infrastructure is lacking. The relative sparseness of existing educational, research and outreach infrastructure creates space for hate groups and movements to operate unnoticed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

You have one minute.

[Daniel Panneton]

Thank you.

The investments that the Government of Canada has made in addressing hate today are vital for the continued development of the tools that will equip Canadians with the digital and hate literacy skills that are needed to decipher the fluid and often surreal nature of political discourse today.

Thank you to the honourable chair and the committee for your time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you very much, Mr. Panneton.

I want to go to the final witnesses, who are from Urban Rez Solutions Social Enterprise. They are Roderick Brereton and Farley Flex, who is executive director. I just need you to know that you will share the five minutes if you both wish to speak.

Thank you very much.