Canadian Heritage Committee on May 18th, 2022

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

I worked for a number of years in the field of traditional radio and television, and I know that it was often very complicated for broadcasters to make presentations to the CRTC during licence renewals or with regard to quotas, for example.

Have you often been told by broadcasters that imposing quotas—let's call it that, since that's the name we've been using all this time—meant imposing on citizens or listeners what they could or could not listen to?

Have you ever been accused of this in the past, to your knowledge? Was this an argument that came up often?

[Ian Scott]

I would ask Mr. Hutton to answer the question.

[Scott Hutton, Chief of Consumer, Research and Communications, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission]

Good afternoon, Mr. Champoux.

Are you talking about quotas or...?

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

I'm talking about discoverability.

[Scott Hutton]

Yes, that's what we call it today.

To repeat what the chairperson said earlier in his answer, the CRTC has never chosen the programming. It sets out certain objectives, for example a quota for radio or television, whether for local news or for Canadian, francophone or other music programming. These are things we do. We provide a regulatory framework, but we don't choose the programming.

Yes, people may believe that, as you say, we choose the programming, but we don't choose it.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

On the one hand, the broadcasters come to you to present their arguments, but on the other hand, the organizations that represent artists, creators and musicians, among others, also come to you to present their arguments.

Has it been demonstrated to you clearly enough that this system keeps our cultural sector strong and that it actually helps artists get the visibility they need?

[Scott Hutton]

Over the last 50 years, Canada has built a system that relates to the audio market, the audiovisual market, our cable system, satellite distribution, and now all the Canadian operators who come online.

The system is built on a set of government programs that include regulation by the CRTC.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

There is a concern that is often raised by digital companies, namely the sacrosanct algorithms. They must not be touched, because they are state secrets, industrial secrets.

I understand that it may be very delicate, because these are their own tools that they use to operate their business model. Having said that, we still need to have means of verification. If you impose targets, you have to have a way of regulating them.

In the copyright sector, it has been extremely complicated to succeed in obtaining distribution reports to check whether the objectives are being met.

Do you think you will have the same problem? Do you already have in mind ways of checking the targets?

[Scott Hutton]

There are targets, but there are also algorithms.

As our chairperson has explained a couple of times, we're not here to regulate algorithms or to butcher them. We're here to make sure that the objectives of the act are realized. We want to make sure that Canadian productions are accessible and that they are shown here and around the world.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

You have one minute, Mr. Champoux.

[Scott Hutton]

We also need to ensure verification.

Certainly the companies are very focused on data. Is that data going to be passed on? Naturally, one of our big requests is to ensure that Bill C‑11 gives us the tools to go and get this data. In cases where there is a compliance issue, we must have a mechanism that allows us to impose administrative penalties.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

One can expect that, with a minimum of goodwill, these organizations—

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you, Mr. Champoux. You have 12 seconds left.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

One might expect these companies to show a little imagination. If they do not want to share their algorithms or give access to them, there must be other means of verification. We are very open.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you, Mr. Champoux.

I'll now go to the New Democratic Party for six minutes, with Mr. Peter Julian.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here.

We hope your families are healthy despite the ongoing pandemic.

I want to start with Mr. Scott, and I appreciate all of your being here today.

You were quoted in the National Post as saying that if we were designing a regulating system today, “you would probably design a regulator very differently”.

What did you mean by that? Are you referencing things like what you've just given us in testimony? You said currently the CRTC has the ability to license and the ability to exempt. Is that part of what you were referring to when you talked about designing it differently?

[Ian Scott]

No, not specifically. The context of that was about the accomplishments over the last five years and what the challenges were moving forward. They specifically asked, “Would you make major changes?” My point was simply that change will come incrementally, and we are absolutely ready to make the necessary incremental changes to implement prospective legislation.

My point was simply that if you truly started with a clean slate, which is rarely the case institutionally, as the world has changed dramatically, you would probably start with a transport layer, with facilities that have poles, wires, spectrum and the like, and then you would have a service layer. The point was not that the current structure of the commission doesn't work, but rather that the world has changed so markedly that if you started with a clean slate, you would probably design the agency differently. Statutes are what we fulfill and they're in your hands. Whatever the statutes say is what we will address, whatever the structure of the agency.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

I guess my question is are the statutes adapted to the needs of responding to—

[Ian Scott]

The Broadcasting Act is not adapted, and the three principal areas that I've pointed out are the ones that we are particularly concerned about. As I said, the clarity, the ability to gather all the necessary data, and enforcement tools—

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Okay.

[Ian Scott]

—to make sure people listen.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you.

We're talking about Bill C-11. In terms of the timelines, you have referred to it potentially taking a couple of years.

[Ian Scott]

I may regret that, but I've tried.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

We'll hold you to it.

In financial terms—because we are talking about the estimates—what does this mean for the CRTC, from what you have looked at so far? As part of that question, you mentioned launching public consultations on Bill C-11. What would that mean in terms of the CRTC's reaching out to Canadians?

[Ian Scott]

If I do the latter, it's so important that members and the public understand that we are quasi-judicial, and so we rely exclusively on the record of proceedings. The key to that is to get quality interventions and to reach out to all Canadians. In fact, part of that work—I was talking about preparatory work—is also studying and exploring ways that we can reach out to all Canadians better, including racialized communities and indigenous peoples, that is, to those who have traditionally perhaps not paid attention to the regulatory agency. That is part of our regular work.

I've lost the first strand of your question. Was it in terms of the resources?