Evidence of meeting #23 for Canadian Heritage in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was crtc.
A recording is available from Parliament.
1:40 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry
Thank you so much, Mr. Champoux. I think we're finished there.
I'm going to go now to the New Democratic Party.
Peter Julian, you have six minutes.
1:40 p.m.
NDP
Peter Julian NDP New Westminster—Burnaby, BC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
I'd like to thank all the witnesses for their presentations, which were very informative. I hope they and their family members are healthy and safe given the ongoing pandemic.
I have three questions. They are for Mr. Saulnier, Ms. Guay and Mr. Skolnik.
My three questions have to do with comments made by the first panel of witnesses we heard from today.
Number one, the OUTtv Network executive told us that online platforms were engaging in a form of discrimination by rejecting certain content. I'd like to know more about that.
Number two, I want to know how exactly Bill C‑11 could impact Canadian artists. Mr. Payette said that the big companies picked the winners and losers and that the bill could help create a more level playing field for Canadian artists.
Number three, if Parliament does not pass Bill C‑11—if we allow the industry to go unregulated for even more years—what impact will it have on Canada's cultural industry and Canadian jobs?
I'd like to hear from Mr. Saulnier first, please.
1:40 p.m.
Author and Retired Professor of Communication from Université de Montréal, As an Individual
I will focus on the last question.
Doing nothing will marginalize cultural groups, like francophones, all over the country.
Artists, video-makers and authors have worked too hard for lawmakers to suddenly let the market dictate what happens, leaving it up to companies—whose editorial policies and strategies are determined by shareholders—to decide what is good or bad for us. That is not up to them, so we really need to get moving. We can't wait another 30 years for a new Broadcasting Act. We need to act quickly.
In my view, we are in danger right now. By we, I mean francophones, first nations and small cultural minorities other than anglophones in the west. We need to do something, and we need to do it now.
I would call Bill C‑11 a first step. Other legislation is coming, including Bill C‑18, which deals with the media. In fact, I would be happy to appear again once the bill has been referred to the committee. To my mind, we need to start moving the needle now.
1:45 p.m.
NDP
Peter Julian NDP New Westminster—Burnaby, BC
Thank you, Mr. Saulnier.
Would you care to add anything, Ms. Guay?
1:45 p.m.
Executive Director, Coalition for the Diversity of Cultural Expressions
Thank you, Mr. Julian.
I completely agree with what Mr. Saulnier just said.
I have some statistics in connection with the last question.
Between 2016 and 2020, contributions to the Canada Media Fund and other such funds dropped from $431 million to $397 million. Canadian programming expenditures declined by 6.7% for conventional services and 9.3% for discretionary and on‑demand services. It is clear that more people now subscribe to online services than to conventional cable or satellite television services.
The transition is quite advanced. The funding needed to support the continued creation and production of oh‑so‑important Canadian content is dwindling. It's about more than just jobs or the economy. It's about people being able to see themselves reflected on screen.
Our cultural sovereignty matters because it contributes to shared values and a collective identity that means something. It's not about cutting ourselves off from the rest of the world. It's about making sure a diversity of cultures and identities continue to exist in the world, as opposed to one homogenized culture where everyone thinks exactly the same way.
It is vitally important to implement policies that encourage diversity and create a place for stories that showcase the experiences of the LGBTQ+ community, for instance. That is fundamental. The market may see no reason for doing that, but the values represented by openness and the need for tolerance are the reasons.
Having a cultural policy is essential if we want the content available to us and what we teach our children to reflect what we aspire to be as a society.
1:45 p.m.
NDP
Peter Julian NDP New Westminster—Burnaby, BC
Thank you very much.
Mr. Skolnik, I'll ask you the same three questions.
1:45 p.m.
Co-Chair, Coalition for the Diversity of Cultural Expressions
Most of what I'm going to say has been said by both Professor Saulnier and my colleague. I think what's vital to realize here is that—and I think Professor Saulnier already said it—this isn't new. Other countries in the world, particularly in the European Union, are leading the way here. They recognize that, as much as we appreciate the content that we get from the platforms, it's very important to maintain your own identity. It's very important to have your own stories told, or at least the perspective from your own citizens. It's not mutually exclusive. Everybody would like to be on the legacy networks despite the fact that they are also on the platforms.
1:45 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry
Thank you.
We're going to go to a second round now. It's a five-minute round this time. I'm beginning with Mr. Uppal from the Conservatives.
You have five minutes. Please go ahead, Tim.
1:45 p.m.
Edmonton Mill Woods, CPC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
I'm going to start with Ms. Berkowitz. There has been some considerable discussion about diversity—
1:45 p.m.
Bloc
Martin Champoux Bloc Drummond, QC
I have a point of order, Madam Chair.
I think the honourable member needs to adjust his microphone.
1:45 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry
Mr. Champoux, we are also going to have to go with the same kind of round we had the last time by not having a full round.
We're going to go with the Conservatives for five, the Liberals for five, you for two and a half and Mr. Julian for two and a half, and it will end there because we don't have a lot of time left.
1:45 p.m.
Bloc
Martin Champoux Bloc Drummond, QC
Thank you for that clarification, Madam Chair.
I raised the point of order simply to indicate that my fellow member needed to adjust his microphone.
1:45 p.m.
Liberal
1:45 p.m.
Edmonton Mill Woods, CPC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Martin, for reminding me about the mike.
Ms. Berkowitz, I just want to start with you. We've had a considerable discussion about cultural diversity and protecting cultural diversity, but we also in Canada have a considerable population that speak a third language or that represent ethnic cultural diversity. Not only for my parents' generation but even in my generation cultural diversity also means seeing some international content.
Canadian content creators are collaborating with international creators. Many singers are singing in a third language and either they're using musicians from other countries or some of their production is actually being done in other parts of the world. Even a lot of the content in local news, from what I understand, the interviews and whatnot, is done here in Canada but it's produced internationally. Some of that is just because of the time difference. They're able to do this overnight and send some clips to India. It gets produced there and then shown here. A lot of that's being done online, being shown online, and Canadians are able to discover it online and see that.
I'm hearing from content creators who are doing cultural content creation and who are concerned that this bill would actually hurt their ability to reach their audience here in Canada. What do you think about that?
1:50 p.m.
Senior Policy Fellow, Audience Lab, The Creative School, Toronto Metropolitan University, As an Individual
Thank you so very much for that question.
This is a huge topic. I'll try to make a few comments in the time allotted and will be happy to follow up.
First of all, from a theoretical point of view, it comes down to whether protection by data strengthens or competition strengthens. We found that, in open competition, YouTubers have become, in 91 countries, the number one exporters and are diverse without any quotas, mostly equal to or in some cases in excess to StatsCan.
That's for the creators, but in our research, we asked both groups what they thought about YouTube. I direct you to figures 2.21 and 3.15. Canadians really cherish the diversity they see on YouTube, and 90% of Canadians—we were so surprised by this data that we parsed it for age, for geography and for language—don't search for Canadian content. They search for the content they want to watch, and they treasure the access to global content.
As well, a majority of Canadian creators, when we asked them this, felt that if there were a sort of artificial discoverability imposed on their channel, which means they would lose the ability to organically rise in other countries, which directly impacts their revenue—that's a long explanation that probably should happen at some point, but anyway—they would be very negatively impacted by that.
Canadian consumers and creators on YouTube are aligned in wanting this to remain an open platform. Does that answer your question?
1:50 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry
Mr. Uppal, can you plug in your mike, please? I think it's unplugged.
The technicians say you are using your computer microphone, not your headset microphone.
1:50 p.m.
The Clerk
If I may, Mr. Uppal, if you could just go to the bottom of your screen, in the bottom left corner, where it says “unmute”, there should be—
1:50 p.m.
Edmonton Mill Woods, CPC
Is that better? Has it changed?
I'm getting a lot of thumbs-up.
1:50 p.m.
The Clerk
I'm being told it's selected. Thank you very much for the change, Mr. Uppal.
1:50 p.m.
Edmonton Mill Woods, CPC
That's perfect. Thank you.
I just wanted to know.... To switch over to the Coalition for the Diversity of Cultural Expressions, since we do have this concern with ethnic experience in Canada, and with those creators having concerns that this bill would actually hinder their ability to reach an audience, do you not think that cultural experience should also be protected in the same way?
1:50 p.m.
Co-Chair, Coalition for the Diversity of Cultural Expressions
Nathalie, do you want to go ahead?
1:50 p.m.
Executive Director, Coalition for the Diversity of Cultural Expressions
Yes. I think that if YouTube, let's say, or other services go in front of the CRTC and demonstrate that these types of measures would have that impact, I do trust that the CRTC would not impose such conditions. I think this argument that we have been hearing over and over is not up to now based on any facts, and there are many other ways to promote and showcase the content than just tweaking the algorithm.
There is also the assumption that there is no Canadian content that would fit the preferences of any other users. I find that.... Let's go to the CRTC. Let's bring those data and experiences, the CRTC will examine the broadcasting policy objectives, and we'll determine what the different services will need to do to showcase these contents in a way that will not obviously harm other Canadian creators.