Canadian Heritage Committee on May 24th, 2022

[Kevin Waugh]

Thank you. We heard the same from the CRTC and the chairman last week. It's going to take at least two years to set up, if not longer.

I'll go now to Dr. Berkowitz.

You are speaking as an individual. Thank you for that. You mentioned 30,000 jobs. My Internet was in and out, so I just want you to repeat how the industry has flourished, certainly over the last two or three years, on YouTube and how well Canadians are doing. We certainly saw that here with the awards in this country. You did point that out.

It's an industry that is growing at a rapid pace. Canadians are very proud of their content and are sharing it worldwide. You had some numbers I wish you would go over again with us, if you don't mind.

[Dr. Irene Berkowitz]

Thank you so much for your question.

I can give a brief review of the UGC numbers and then also give you some comments on the legacy media, which is, as was mentioned earlier this morning, performing marvellously.

Here's this Watchtime report. I really, truly wish you would all read it because there are 50 data charts in here. The bottom line is that Canada is the number one for exporters on the entire platform. We did quite a conservative evaluation. All the methodology is described in the report. In the 15 brief years of YouTube's existence, there are already 30,000 full-time jobs for Canadians and 160,000 Canadian entrepreneurs who are trying to make it without any public investment.

Going over the the legacy side, as was reviewed this morning by Dr. Geist, you've heard about record TV employment thanks to these global platforms. You've also heard of shows like Denmark's Borgen, Israel's Fauda and South Korea's Squid Game. I wanted to add that small countries like ours are really killing it on the global stage today because they have done the policy work that we really need to get CRTC to focus on.

Language is not a barrier. Competition is rising and it is imperative that we update and innovate our own policy because streamers really need content that will make it on the global stage.

[Kevin Waugh]

Thank you very much, Dr. Berkowitz.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you. That's the end of that round.

I would like to go to the Liberals for six minutes with Tim Louis.

[Tim Louis]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses. I appreciate your being here.

I'll begin the questioning through you, Madam Chair, to Professor Saulnier.

You did a wonderful job explaining how, as a nation, we've reacted in the past in regard to media and culture over the decades and how we've protected our culture. Now we're well into the digital universe, and it seems past time to do something.

Could you just express the importance and the time limits of what we're doing and what Canadians have already done for decades, which is protecting our cultural sovereignty and our voices?

[Alain Saulnier]

As I was explaining a little earlier, when Canada and Quebec had to deal with the influence of American culture at their borders, the government decided to do something about it. In 1936, the CBC was created. Later, the CRTC obtained regulatory authority over communication. In 1952, the English counterpart of Radio-Canada, CBC/Radio-Canada was created to counter that influence.

It's important to be able to continue to fend off this invasion, this imposition of American content. In the movies, for example, the major established American studios consider us part of their domestic market. That's why they screen all of their blockbusters in our movie theatres, in all our major cities and just about everywhere else in Canada.

As I was saying a little earlier, in 1997, the CRTC missed an opportunity. It thought that allowing the Internet to develop on its own without any regulation would promote its growth. But I believe that was a mistake. We should have reacted more quickly. Since then, it has grown into the law of the jungle. As a result, cultures like ours—I'm not talking only about francophone culture, but first nations culture too—are becoming increasingly marginalized and it's difficult for artists to be discovered. That's why we need some regulation, and an act, and the CRTC needs to be granted the regulatory powers that will put us on an equal footing.

Otherwise, it will be a return to the law of the marketplace and the Internet giants, who will determine what's good for us and what isn't. I personally don't want that.

[Tim Louis]

Thank you.

I believe you mentioned that the main gateway to music is YouTube, yet very few artists are making a living from YouTube. We're also seeing a public that's increasingly more dependent on online social media platforms and those streaming services.

What about the artists and creators who have that presence online? Would you consider them dependent on these digital platforms, and in what ways are these digital spaces making our creators vulnerable?

[Alain Saulnier]

Earlier this morning, Mr. Payette explained to us just how drastically the field of music had changed since the introduction of these online platforms. Now, the largest source of music is YouTube.

We have excellent artists, like Hubert Lenoir and Ariane Moffatt, who get some exposure. How do you get exposure? You can perform at concerts, release what we used to call records back in the day, or make sure that your music as much play as possible on radio. However, that's no longer the way people listen to music.

That means not only that a different way has to be found to regulate the presence of music on platforms like YouTube, but also to ensure that francophone artists can be heard on these platforms.

The task of determining how this can be done will no doubt fall to the CRTC. What will clearly happen unless an act like the one being studied at the moment does not receive support, and if we are unable to provide a regulatory structure to support it, francophone artists will remain undiscovered. It will mean that our writers will will almost no money. In the medium and longer term, it means the disappearance of our music.

[Tim Louis]

I very much agree. Thank you.

Maybe I could turn to Mr. Skolnik. BillC-11 has important provisions to support our programming specifically for historically overlooked communities. Can you speak to how Bill C-11 will be important to our cultural identity and our community, and how that window is closing and this timing is critical?

[Bill Skolnik]

As you heard, we're in favour of diverse cultural expressions. That's our raison d'être. The window is closing because, whether it's deliberate or inadvertent, the large platforms are taking over. We need to allow particularly our indigenous folks, and other communities as well, the ability to continue to receive funding through the various means that the traditional broadcasters have provided. That is something we want to see continue and that's represented in Bill C-11 by using the platforms and their contributions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you very much, Mr. Skolnik.

Now we move to the Bloc Québécois and Monsieur Champoux for six minutes.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I'd like to thank the witnesses for being here with us today.

[Technical difficulty—Editor]

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Martin, can you say something?

Clerk, can we suspend for a while so you can check out what's happening, please?

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

We're back.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

I'm back.

I hope you didn't miss me too much, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

I missed you a lot, Mr. Champoux.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Mr. Saulnier, you were the director of information at Radio-Canada at a time when digital platforms were beginning to expand dramatically. If I'm not mistaken, you were among those who, at the time, felt that Canada should have regulated this new reality more quickly.

I believe that Canada waited much too long before considering regulation.

What did people tell you at the time when you told them that something had to be done about the Internet giants that were beginning to occupy that space?

[Alain Saulnier]

You have to remember what it was like at the time. Steve Jobs became a major creative celebrity. We were all obsessed and enthralled by the creativity and modernity of these people. I'm talking about people like Mark Zuckerberg and Jeff Bezos.

In a way, I think that successive governments—the Conservatives and the Liberals—until recently had the impression that it would be unwise to do battle against the Internet giants. Remember the Netflix tax. People said that it shouldn't be introduced. Remember also that there was an outcry in Quebec, because the media and the cultural milieu decided instead that something had to be done.

If we were too slow, it's because we were impressed and mesmerised by the power of these Internet giants, which oozed modernity.

We are beginning to put all of that into a framework, which is all to the good. However, we lost a full year over Bill C‑10, which died on the Order Paper when the election was called. Personally, I believe that the longer we wait, the longer we will be stuck with the law of the jungle that I alluded to earlier.

At the CBC, people were telling us that it was important to be on Facebook. What happened? We went on Facebook. All the media shot themselves in the foot at the time because it meant that we were becoming increasingly marginalized. You can't allow access to the media through social networks. Things have to be done differently. The media have to be very strong.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

I don't want to draw a parallel with the wild west, but that's what we're seeing, to some extent. The market has indeed developed without any framework or regulation.

I know that you mainly worked in information, but you also taught communications at a university. You therefore have a good overview of the industry.

Do you think that if we had done something 10 or 15 years ago, when it could be done easily and gradually, the market would be very different today, not only for the platforms, but also for the news and cultural content creators?

[Alain Saulnier]

We've allowed these giants, these platforms, to set up permanently in our jurisdictions, and Canada and Quebec aren't the only ones dealing with this. Every country in the west has had to face this new reality. That's why it has taken everyone so long to respond, although Europe has taken a much more aggressive approach, if you will. Here, though, we have been much too slow to make regulations.

Now, it feels as though we are up against giants and reeling them in at all is impossible. That is why I think Parliament needs to pass Bill C‑11 quickly. If lawmakers don't do it now, they'll just be kicking the can down the road yet again.

Small cultural groups around the world—that includes us, as francophones—will become even more marginalized than they are today. Lawmakers should not wait any longer; nor should they be influenced by the digital giants who want to impose their content their way by deciding what is good and what is bad. We can't go down that road.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Saulnier.

Ms. Guay, you heard what the witnesses in the previous panel said.

I'd like to hear your comments on that discussion. I am certain that you didn't miss a second of it.

[Nathalie Guay]

You're right. I didn't miss a second.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Ms. Guay, you have 30 seconds.

[Nathalie Guay]

I have to tell you that I agreed with all the points raised by my colleague Jérôme Payette, who is the treasurer for the Coalition for the Diversity of Cultural Expressions. It's unfortunate that those who support the bill are seen by some as people who don't really understand what's going on, people who are out of touch, people who are no longer in the know.

We see the efforts artists, creators and companies on the ground are making to contribute to the wealth of metadata and gain visibility on the platforms. They are working harder and harder with fewer and fewer resources to break into the market. It's really unfortunate to hear what is being said about the arts community, but I can talk more about that later.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Rather than creating division, we should all be joining forces to help the arts community flourish.