Canadian Heritage Committee on May 30th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

You have 22 seconds, Ms. Auer.

[Monica Auer]

I'll try to be brief.

I think it would be critical, first of all, for the commission to report annually on how it is actually implementing subsection 3(1), and also section 5. If we don't know how it is doing its job, we're unable to put pressure on the commission to actually change what it's doing.

In terms of timing, the commission currently publishes next to no useful information about the timing of its work or how it is actually achieving work. In some ways one could argue that the information it provides Parliament now misleads people about what it is actually managing to achieve. We provided detailed recommendations in our submissions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you. There's such a short time for everyone to get into the nitty-gritty of what they really want to say, so I'm very sorry about that.

It is now noon, colleagues. We've finished our first round and we're going to have bells at 12:30, so I think we have room for a second round. What I'd like to do is begin the second round now, which is a five-minute round, and I begin with Mr. Waugh for the Conservative Party.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'm going to pick up with the Forum for Research and Policy in Communications.

It's been 17 months and we still haven't heard boo from the CRTC on the licensing of CBC, our national public broadcaster. Next month, in June, it will be a full year and we're still waiting for a three-digit suicide helpline. These are two examples where the CRTC isn't doing its job today.

Ms. Auer, I think you've hit it right on. With a staff of 650-plus, they are still not capable of doing what they should be capable of in the Broadcasting Act. I want you to expand on that.

I have talked excessively about the CRTC. They cannot handle today's facts, yet we're going to be piling C-11 on, plus C-18, it looks like. I'd like your thoughts, please.

[Monica Auer]

Thank you for the question, Mr. Waugh.

In terms of the CBC decision, it's bizarre that it's taking this long. I have no reason to explain it. I should tell you that, having worked at the commission, I admire so many of the commission staff working under difficult times, especially during the pandemic. As I understand it, leadership comes from the top. If the commission itself—the commissioners—is not requiring timeliness, I don't think we can blame the staff for that.

I'd like to also mention that my data, which I had looked at for the CRTC, showed that from 2000 to 2021, the commission staff had increased by a quarter—from 400 to more than 500. There are resources there. The commission got additional funding just to help it begin to do this and Chairperson Scott addressed the fact that he had allocated 100 people to start preparing for C-11.

However, the fact remains that when you try to find out what the commission is doing, it is difficult to find out. Why is that? Why can't we actually have ongoing, regular reports from the commission about what it is doing?

When you think about the issue of transparency—because timeliness is really, in a way, part of transparency—why don't we actually know today who is making decisions at the commission? The commission's process of making decisions changed after the 1982 charter. That's why there's a requirement in the 1991 act that they who hear decide. The problem is that it's the chair who decides who decides. That means the independence of the commission is compromised.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

I only have five minutes, so I want to move on, if I can, to Mr. Rogers.

Ronnie Hawkins died yesterday. Is he a Canadian or is he an American?

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Patrick Rogers]

I thank the member for the question.

As of right now on radio, that is determined by the CRTC. Obviously, his contribution to the music industry is important.

I think you raise an important part of what regulation of music will look like. Who will decide who is Canadian? Our members at Music Canada look forward to taking part in those discussions with the CRTC, as long as there's an understanding that starting with radio rules is not necessarily where we need to begin and that the answers are not algorithmic. They are platform by platform.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

Yes, I think you're right on.

I worry about radio. Streaming has taken over. You had the numbers there. I think if you look a few years down the road, the radio industry may not even be accessible in this country. The music industry in this country over the decades has really relied on the old radio, but it's done now. You gave some great stats on streaming and how well Canadian stars are doing streaming.

[Patrick Rogers]

Just so we're a hundred per cent clear, I don't think I'm here to say radio is dead. Radio's still an important part of our business, but Canada's now at two billion streams a week. We're excited by that. I think there's an amazing amount of opportunity to be found there—English and French, indie and major. This is something we can all be excited about.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you very much, Kevin. With that radio voice of yours, I think we'd want to see radio continue.

I will now go to Mr. Louis for the Liberals.

Tim, you have five minutes.

[Tim Louis, Liberal, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I want to thank all of our witnesses. I appreciate their time and their being here.

I would like to continue the conversation with Mr. Rogers, but I first want a chance to talk to the independent broadcasters group, specifically Mr. Fortune.

There have been some voices claiming that the online streaming act would somehow give some sort of unprecedented control over what content we see online. Right now these companies are....

Could you comment further on the power platforms currently have as gatekeepers for access to programming and services, and how, as the system exists now, they can already exercise those preferences or even discrimination?

[Joel Fortune]

Thank you for the question. That's a very important point.

Again, when we're talking about online platforms, we're talking about services like Roku or others that provide access for third party programming services to reach the public and be distributed on a platform. One must reach an agreement with the provider of the platform for access to the public. These are not social media services. You don't get to put out content on your own. You have to negotiate and obtain their consent to access the public.

The best example given last week was Mr. Danks'. He explained how OUTtv, his Canadian LGBTQ programming service, which has a strong presence around the world.... It's one of the leaders in Canada providing Canadian programming around the world. He described how he's had issues gaining access to certain large online platforms for his service, precisely because it is LGBTQ content. That's the sort of control issue online platforms have. You don't get to upload your own content. You have to license it to the platform and reach an agreement. They very much control the audience that sees your content.

It is important for Canadian services to have meaningful access and be treated fairly by these platforms. That's what we're seeking.

[Tim Louis, Liberal, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

Thank you for that.

I will turn to Mr. Rogers from Music Canada, representing Sony, Universal and Warner.

Thanks again for being here. We spoke briefly about the Canadian content rules for traditional radio and how it has supported our artists over the years.

In your opinion, would the music industry be the same if we had not supported Canadian artists with the CanCon rules we had on traditional radio? Would they have had the same commercial success? Can you take a high-level approach and talk about how CanCon in radio has made a difference in protecting our cultural sovereignty?

[Patrick Rogers]

As I said in my opening statement, this is very much the bedrock of the Canadian music industry, which is led by the majors. We partner in distribution with indies and publishers. We make up the ecosystem, and those regulations have helped provide that.

The Internet is a very different place from radio, and services that are provided digitally operate in a different function. I'm not immediately convinced that what works in one place will work in the other, but at the core, when I hear the minister talk about the goals.... I think the minister has it right. The desire for accessibility, but not necessarily pushing it, is something we would strongly support.

[Tim Louis, Liberal, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

Thank you.

As a follow-up, we talked about the arts moving over to streaming and how the growth of industry has certainly benefited the platforms. You mentioned some of the international artists, but not all artists are experiencing that surge in revenues.

Would you agree that a larger fund available to Canadian artists, especially if there were extra contributions from foreign-owned streaming giants in addition to the funding that traditional Canadian companies are already contributing...? Would you agree this would definitely support our whole ecosystem, from top to bottom?

[Patrick Rogers]

Thank you for the question.

Obviously, government funding, or government-mandated funding, has played an important role in the music ecosystem, but I would point out that there's also great success in the industry as well.

The Internet has removed a lot of gatekeepers—those who kept artists off the radio. Those artists are now able to go to different platforms and put their music out there and connect directly with their fans. That doesn't mean you can create fans who aren't there, but you can go and find them, and you can break out. You don't have to break out locally. You can break out internationally. That's one of the wonders of the system now, and I think it's one of the things Canadians are finding great success in: connecting in pockets, and not just in Toronto, Montreal or Vancouver. They're finding success all around the world.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you very much.

The time is up, Mr. Louis.

I'm going now to Mr. Champoux for two and a half minutes.

Go ahead, Martin.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I have a few quick questions.

First, I would like to turn to Mr. Fares, from Disney.

You talked about the productions you have recently made using Canadian talent. Who owns the rights to these productions? Is it Disney?

[David Fares]

It's largely Disney, because they are our own produced productions, yes.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Mr. Fares, of the productions you have produced in Canada in recent years, how many were originally in French?

[David Fares]

We launched Disney+ in Canada in November 2019, and we've launched in other markets around the world—

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Mr. Fares, how many Disney productions made in Canada in recent years were originally in French?

I don't want to know the history, just the answer.

[David Fares]

Currently our productions in Canada are in English, but we are very proud of what we do in Quebec. I would like to just highlight those, if I can—

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

I totally agree. It's a simple question. I just want to highlight the importance here of protecting certain things that are perhaps less profitable for production companies, but which are culturally important for Quebec and Canada.

I would now like to speak with Mr. Rogers, from Music Canada.

Mr. Rogers, the recording industry in Quebec and Canada has undergone a major transformation since the arrival of the digital giants. I'm glad to hear that the record companies have managed to get their heads above water and to find other sources of income. Things are going well for companies like Sony, Warner and Universal.

However, the artists who are making a living from their music at the moment don't really get royalties from record sales anymore, because there are far fewer records being sold. You know this very well. For example, a few years ago, we heard that a song by a Quebec artist had generated 1 million views, but that it had only earned him $500.

I'm glad the record companies are getting back on track and finding something beneficial in this business model, but what about the artists? How can we improve their income in this world?