Canadian Heritage Committee on June 14th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Do we have Mr. Champoux, then Mr. Coteau and then Mr. Bittle?

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Mr. Bittle will go first.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Go ahead, Martin.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Madam Chair, I don't quite agree with my colleague Mr. Julian.

When we considered Bill C‑10 last year, we had similar amendments that were outside the scope of the Broadcasting Act. I would have liked to hear Mr. Méla's opinion on this. Last year, we dealt with programs that depicted torture. In short, an issue had come up regarding the lack of respect for human rights.

In this case, we're obviously talking about controlling content, which I find rich coming from our Conservative colleague. While I understand the spirit and intent of the proposal, which comes from a good place, I don't feel we can begin to determine what constitutes sexually explicit content. Access to that type of content is also a parental responsibility. The committee would be going far beyond its mandate if it began to regulate content of that type.

With respect to content produced and distributed on pornographic platforms, including those owned by MindGeek and referred to by Mr. Viersen, Canada already has laws in place to prevent the exploitation of children, women and more vulnerable individuals. Another category of laws deal with that. It is not our place to interfere with that. I believe everyone agrees on that.

In short, the intentions are good, but this has no place in the bill we're considering at all. That's why I'll be voting against these amendments.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you, Mr. Champoux.

Go ahead, Mr. Coteau.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Do you want to go first?

[Chris Bittle, Liberal, St. Catharines, ON]

You can go first.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

I have a quick question for the movers, if possible. It captures CPC-4, CPC-5 and CPC-6. I understand what's trying to be accomplished here.

I'll pick out the racism piece. It says, in all three, that they will look for ways.... You're going to prevent the broadcasting of programs that display any type of racism, for example. How do you prevent racism by not broadcasting racism? For example, what about a news story? If there is an act of racism, can you not say so on the news anymore? I just want to get some clarity on that, because I don't know how you prevent these things without talking about these things.

I don't know whether I can ask the movers a question. Perhaps it's just a statement.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Mr. Viersen, would you like to respond to Mr. Coteau?

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

Yes.

What I've attempted to do is put in sexually explicit content that depicts racism. There are complete genres of sexually explicit content, where the very idea is about being racist. That's what we want to prevent from being broadcast—not that there is no racism. The sexually explicit content is the first indicator, and the very fact of that being tied.... For example, currently, regarding searches for Ukrainian women, in particular, there is a 600% increase in that search, suddenly. That is the type of thing we are trying to prevent from being broadcast: sexually explicit content whose reason for existence is to fuel a racist desire.

That's why I have four different versions of this, trying to capture.... It's a difficult thing to capture in language, but that's precisely what I'm after.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Could I continue, Madam Chair, if I still have the floor?

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Yes. Go ahead.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Thank you.

How do you prevent a news story from being told that includes this kind of content if something bad happens?

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

Yes. A news story wouldn't be sexually explicit material. It's a news broadcast.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

The description would be.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

What do you mean “the description”?

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

If they were describing something that took place that was wrong and they described it....

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

Perhaps what we should use, then, is the one that says “pornographic material”, because “pornographic material” is very well understood in Canadian law. I think “sexually explicit material” is understood as well, but the nightly news is not defined in Canadian law as being “pornographic material”—

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Right.

[Arnold Viersen, Conservative, Peace River—Westlock, AB]

It's the nightly news. That's the identifier. Preventing the broadcast of that particular material that is to fulfill a racist desire, that is what we're trying to attempt.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Okay.

My second question may be more for our folks here who are helping us. Again.... Do you know what? I'll wait until CPC-7. I have a question specifically on that, so I'll stop here.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

As we speak about CPC-7—before I go to Mr. Bittle—I just wanted to point out to the committee that there is a section, a subparagraph (v) that is identical in CPC-4, CPC-5, CPC-6 and CPC-7. If one amendment is adopted—let's say that CPC-4 is adopted or CPC-7 is adopted—the others will have to be moved without that paragraph. I just wanted everyone to know about that.

Go ahead, Mr. Bittle.

[Chris Bittle, Liberal, St. Catharines, ON]

Thank you.

I kind of just did want to point out the irony of Mr. Viersen's statement—and to paraphrase him—that platforms are in and users are out. Only platforms have obligations under these sections, and I think there has been a lot of derision of the minister, but we're hearing that today. I don't want to repeat what Mr. Housefather has gone through, but I agree with him that this is the only provision of the bill that is engaging in censorship.

Though I respect Mr. Viersen, who has worked very hard on this, going back to the 42nd Parliament and his work through various incarnations, this is probably something that's better dealt with in future legislation, which is in the minister's mandate letter for online harms.

I know that Ms. Thomas has brought a study to look at that as well, and it's something we really need to address, but I don't think this is the right spot to do it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you, Mr. Bittle.

I hope everyone notes this.

I am not seeing anybody else with their hand up. Is there anybody we're missing? No.

I'd like to call the vote on CPC-4.

(Amendment negatived: nays 7; yeas 4)

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

I would like to point out that we have two minutes left for the hard stop at six o'clock. There needs to be a 30-minute break for the support staff to the committee.

Before we move to the others, which we can come back to, I would like to entertain a motion to adjourn.

I now call this meeting adjourned.