Canadian Heritage Committee on Feb. 9th, 2022

[Kendra Bator]

I think there is much more to do. I think that these conversations are certainly a helpful beginning, and as we referenced in our statement, we've been having many of them of late. I would say that in defining culture, and therefore a cultural mandate, it's important for us to remember that it's not just what's happening on stage that defines the cultural activity. It is the activity of going to the theatre. It is the cultural activity of participating in that, on stage, backstage and at front of house. The Canadian story is all of that activity, not just the ones that are being written down and then sung on stage.

I think that needs to be more detailed in the mandate and activities that come out of it.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Ms. Bator, do you feel that the government has overlooked your sector?

[Kendra Bator]

I think, to Michael's point, we have not advocated for ourselves in the past. When we were plunged into this crisis, along with everyone else, we were starting at a very different point in conversation. We've been grateful to be heard. We've been grateful that people have returned our calls and emails, and that they continue to do so. We want to partner with the government to create supports that will last beyond this crisis, because it's not just about getting out of the crisis, it's about sustaining the industry after.

I think there's a lot of work to do, and I think we all have to do it together.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you, Ms. Bator.

You can expand on that with the next question, I'm sure.

Now we go to the Liberals for five minutes.

Mr. Housefather.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I'm so excited to see everybody here today, because I absolutely am passionate about theatre.

Sometimes you have to start by bragging about your riding. When I was mayor of Côte Saint-Luc, along with the current mayor, Mitchell Brownstein, we founded the Côte Saint-Luc Dramatic Society to give young actors in our area—many of whom have gone on to Sheridan College in Toronto—the chance to act, the chance to do backstage work and the chance for west-end audiences to see English theatre in Montreal. We happen to have won the Montreal English Theatre Awards for four out of the last five years, before the pandemic, for Cabaret, Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat, Hairspray and The Producers. We put them on in conjunction with the Segal Centre, which is also in my riding.

The last time we were doing this type of a study, Lisa Rubin, who is the incredible executive director of the Segal Centre, was here. She talked about the support that some government programs had indeed offered to the industry, such as the wage subsidy, the lease subsidy, the CERB that's helped individual performers, and now, of course, we have the $60-million resilience fund. There are things, generally, that have helped the industry.

I want to talk about how we can use this as an opportunity to recognize how we've supported other industries, but we haven't supported theatre in Canada so that Toronto can compete with New York, Chicago and London. There's English theatre like that in Montreal, Vancouver, Halifax, Ottawa and other major cities, and francophone theatre, not only in Montreal, but in Ottawa, Moncton and other parts of Canada where there are significant audiences.

Let's talk about tax credits first of all. You've talked about the U.K. tax credits. Have there been any provinces in Canada that the federal government can look to that have done anything with respect to tax credits and incentives to help theatre? If not, what foreign jurisdiction, whether Australia, the U.K., a state in the U.S., should we look to as an example of what we should do on tax credits and incentives?

[Michael Rubinoff]

If I may, first of all the Segal Centre is a prime example of an extraordinary theatre where commercial theatre producers have partnered with the centre to take on and test out commercial work. Lisa Rubin is a prime example of an extraordinary leader. We do not have any provinces in the country right now that have tax credits for theatre. Obviously, film and televison is a harmonized federal...with certain provinces.

I think the State of Illinois and obviously the State of New York are wonderful examples to look at. Ohio is a little unique in that they did a program where they merged their film and television with theatre. These tax credits are 20% to 25% on labour and, in some cases, on production materials, but they are really anchored in labour. They make a considerable difference. They all have different limits on them, but incentives of up $1 million or $1.5 million or $2 million make a huge difference when your risk is so significant, and you have all of that risk through box-office revenue.

That sort of assistance, that sort of partnering, really will stimulate our industry significantly.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Thank you.

Ms. Prégent, I'd like to ask you the same question as it applies to the theatre sector in Quebec or to francophone theatre across Canada.

Would these be the same types of applications, such as those for tax credits?

[Sophie Prégent]

Thank you for that excellent question, which I am unable to answer.

Nevertheless, I could readily find the answer to the question about tax credits. Some of my friends are artistic directors of Francophone theatres. Lorraine Pintal, for example, comes to mind. I'm sure I could obtain information that would be useful to you. I can get an answer for you within a few hours or by tomorrow.

Tax credits could be a form of assistance. There were several support measures introduced during the pandemic. For example, the ticket sales matching program which was widely used and enabled theatres to stay afloat even though audience sizes were seriously reduced. To ensure a more lasting recovery, longer-term measures could be considered. It's important to learn lessons from the pandemic.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Definitely.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Thank you.

I have one last question, because again, I'm completely in favour of the idea of doing for this sector what we're doing for other sectors.

This question is to either Ms. Bator or Mr. Rubinoff. Do you believe part of the issue, of course, again, that you haven't previously come to ask for this type of support is the fact that the industry is partially, in the sense of large productions, so centred in Toronto? Has that been part of the issue, that other parts of Canada haven't supported pushing this type of support for the sector because the industry is essentially so concentrated in Toronto?

[Kendra Bator]

I don't know that I would characterize it that way. Broadway Across Canada is one of our partners in commercial theatre and they present commercial touring productions across the country. Perhaps that activity is not to the same extent, but it does exist and it is robust.

Again, we haven't advocated for ourselves. These issues about tax credits, though, predate the COVID-19 crisis, and there has been discussion in the media about the battle between Chicago and Toronto and where productions go. Therefore, this has been years long. It's not a recent topic of conversation.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Thank you, and thanks again for all that you all do.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Now we'll go to the Bloc Québécois.

Mr. Champoux, you have two and a half minutes.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Ms. Prégent, you previously mentioned a subject of interest to me, and that's the eligibility of artists and cultural workers for programs like employment insurance, which would constitute a form of social safety net. It's a subject that is often raised. Moreover, this committee is going to conduct a study on the federal Status of the Artist Act. There is such an act in Quebec as well, and you are very familiar with it. The act is clearly in need of reform.

What positive impacts would these measures you are proposing have had if they had been in place during the pandemic?

[Sophie Prégent]

The measures that were introduced, namely the CERB, the CRB, the CWLB, and the $60 million in funding that has just been announced, were created specifically because there was no social safety net for artists. There was no financial support, and artists were in the dark. It should be noted in passing that every time a benefit program ended and was replaced by another, artists found themselves abandoned and in the dark for long periods during the transition.

Would it be possible to learn from the pandemic to improve the situation and establish a permanent form of employment insurance? Of course, we would contribute. It could be used during a pandemic, for example, or at times when artists are not earning any income.

We believe that lessons should be drawn from the experience. The pandemic exacerbated the absence of financial support, not only for creators, but all self-employed workers and freelancers across Canada. The knowledge we acquired during the pandemic should be used to improve things.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

I'm sure you'll agree that these problems existed already.

[Sophie Prégent]

Yes, of course.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

It took a crisis to reveal the extent of these problems, and the potential disasters that could result.

[Sophie Prégent]

Yes, precisely.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

I'm happy that we have an opportunity to discuss it. It's probably an ideal time for a revision of this federal act.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

You have 30 seconds.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Ms. Prégent, do you believe that the Status of the Artist Act had a positive impact in Quebec?

Would I be right to say that you would like the federal act to have more teeth?

[Sophie Prégent]

Yes, indeed.

Artists are well protected in Quebec under the province's act on the status of artists, but I believe that the federal act could do better.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

We'll see.

[Sophie Prégent]

Thank you.