Evidence of meeting #52 for Canadian Heritage in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was journalism.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Marilyn Gladu Conservative Sarnia—Lambton, ON
—and now you've mentioned a copyright law and that we may be infringing on article 10(1) of the Berne Convention.
What will happen if the bill is passed without fixing those things?
Canada Research Chair in Internet and E-Commerce Law, Faculty of Law, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
I'll try to go quickly.
There's a lot to talk about with respect to copyright, which hasn't received, I think, the attention it deserves.
I think it's a real problem, especially for a bill that comes out of Heritage, which focuses so much on copyright, especially a journalism bill that depends upon fair dealing as part of what journalism is all about. To undermine that and essentially say that certain groups aren't entitled to exercise the limitations and exceptions that the Supreme Court of Canada has said are user rights.... Layer on top of that the clear requirement—
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry
Thank you, Mr. Geist.
You have now gone well over time. You may be able to answer that in another round when someone else asks a question.
We'll now go to the Liberals and Tim Louis for five minutes.
Liberal
Tim Louis Liberal Kitchener—Conestoga, ON
Thank you, Madam Chair. I'll direct all my questions through you.
I want to thank the witnesses for being here in person and online.
I'll start with Ms. Saras-Voutsinas, the executive director of the National Ethnic Press and Media Council of Canada.
In my riding, our local newspapers did not stop during the pandemic. Ethnic press did not stop during the pandemic in my region and, indeed, across Canada. I wanted to take this opportunity to thank your members—all local news outlets across Canada—for providing that vital public health and public safety information during the pandemic.
You said in your opening testimony, “Readership surged but advertising cratered.” Also in your opening statement, you said that Facebook earns about $200 million from Canadian ad revenue. That's what this legislation is trying to do. It's trying to level that playing field.
I wanted to see if I could clear this up. In your opening statement, I believe you said there were no deals made yet. How many members of your organization have made deals with the tech platforms?
Executive Director, National Ethnic Press and Media Council of Canada
As far as I'm aware, it's zero.
Liberal
Tim Louis Liberal Kitchener—Conestoga, ON
Ultimately, what we're looking for is fair negotiations.
I wanted to refer to those small players and the collective bargaining framework that's in the bill. We heard testimony from one of the witnesses who said that smaller players “just don't have the bargaining power. They don't have the time, and they don't have the energy. They aren't big enough to support that kind of negotiation need.” However, we've also heard that similar legislation implemented in Australia showed strong benefits that happened quickly for the small news outlets.
Would you care to respond to those comments? Do you believe that this bill's provisions would lead these smaller players, to incur that heavier burden and help you with the obvious imbalance that exists without this legislation between the small publishers and the Internet giants?
Executive Director, National Ethnic Press and Media Council of Canada
Absolutely.
In Australia alone, I believe there were 24 ethnic and LGBTQ outlets that were able to strike deals, which is fantastic news for us. What we're looking for is a collective negotiation. That's why we've been working very closely with News Media Canada, so that we work out a way where at least 35% of newsroom salaries are covered by this bill.
Collectively, it just makes a lot more sense.
Liberal
Tim Louis Liberal Kitchener—Conestoga, ON
You mentioned News Media Canada. The committee previously heard from News Media Canada—the trade association that represents a large number of small players across the country—that they are going to form a collective bargaining unit in which each member provides editorial expenses confidentially to a law firm. They'd negotiate collectively with the platforms, and any settlements from the collective negotiation would be shared among publishers on a pro rata basis.
Do you believe this is achievable? Is this a strong model?
Executive Director, National Ethnic Press and Media Council of Canada
I do. Absolutely. I definitely have faith in that process.
Liberal
Tim Louis Liberal Kitchener—Conestoga, ON
That's fantastic.
Last week, we heard some witnesses—and even testimony from my colleagues across the aisle, the Conservative MPs—advocating for the possible establishment of a fund—a tax on tech giants, I imagine—that they would contribute to where they would be under no regulatory scrutiny.
My understanding is that the government already has a number of measures targeted to the smaller players, in addition to this legislation we're looking for. We have the Canada periodical fund. The local journalism initiative was also mentioned today.
Can you speak to the importance of these other streams of funding for your members, and how they would complement legislation like Bill C-18?
November 4th, 2022 / 2:05 p.m.
Executive Director, National Ethnic Press and Media Council of Canada
The other sources of funding have been a lifeline, especially the special measures for journalism fund. It was opened to free publications, which the majority of my members are in their communities. Again, they've all been a lifeline.
The local journalism initiative is another one. It was never meant to be a pandemic measure. However, it gave the smaller outlets an opportunity to hire journalists to come on board and to reach communities that, traditionally, they weren't able to reach due to not having the funding there.
They've been exceptional and a big reason why we've been able to make it to this point.
Liberal
Tim Louis Liberal Kitchener—Conestoga, ON
In 30 seconds, I won't be able to get an answer to a question, so I'll just say thank you again to everyone for being here on this important legislation.
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry
Thank you very much.
We now go to Martin Champoux from the Bloc Québécois for two and a half minutes, please.
Bloc
Denis Trudel Bloc Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC
Madam Chair, I'm going to speak instead of Mr. Champoux, if I may. I believe that Mr. Champoux is okay with it.
Bloc
Denis Trudel Bloc Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
I'd like to thank the witnesses for being here today to take part in this important debate we're having.
I have a fairly simple question for Mr. Owen.
When people criticize the web giants, we hear a lot of people say that they're attacking free speech. We saw it in Parliament when we were considering Bill C‑11, and we discussed it a lot. Here we are doing it again with Bill C‑18.
Mr. Owen, do you share that opinion? Is Bill C‑18 an attack on free speech in Canada?
Beaverbrook Chair in Media, Ethics and Communication, Associate Professor, and Director of the Centre for Media, Technology and Democracy, McGill University, As an Individual
Bloc
Denis Trudel Bloc Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC
Thank you, Mr. Owen.
In an article for the daily The Montreal Gazette, you write that web platforms are not designed to give us quality news, but they're instead calibrated to attract as much attention as possible and maximize profits.
Do you believe that Bill C‑18 could reverse that trend?
Google is saying that the bill will amplify and promote disinformation. Would you agree?
Beaverbrook Chair in Media, Ethics and Communication, Associate Professor, and Director of the Centre for Media, Technology and Democracy, McGill University, As an Individual
I'm sorry. I didn't hear the start. Was that directed to me?
Bloc
Denis Trudel Bloc Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC
I'll repeat it.
In an article for the daily The Montreal Gazette, you write that web platforms are not designed to give us quality news, but they're instead calibrated to attract as much attention as possible and maximize profits.
Do you feel that Bill C‑18 will reverse this trend that you believe is happening on web platforms?
Beaverbrook Chair in Media, Ethics and Communication, Associate Professor, and Director of the Centre for Media, Technology and Democracy, McGill University, As an Individual
I don't think Bill C-18 is designed to, nor will it reverse the trend of how the financial model and design of platforms preference certain types of content over others. That, in and of itself, is its own dynamic that other policy mechanisms can get at, but that is not what this bill is designed to do.
Now, can it help redistribute some of the ad funding dollars that are acquired through the distribution of content—including journalistic content—by these platforms to the publishers that create journalism? Yes, I think it could do that.