Canadian Heritage Committee on Dec. 9th, 2022

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I just want to briefly respond.

First of all, I want to congratulate the committee, because I agree with what Mr. Julian said. I believe the committee improved the bill. I think this was a very good way of working together.

We worked together to improve this bill. It's a good example of the cooperation that we have on this committee, and I'm proud of that.

Second, I also want to say that there's no preordained total amount that will be negotiated in these agreements. Nobody could possibly know what amount every single organization is going to get. To start throwing out that it's this percentage or that percentage that this one is going to get.... These are going to be negotiated agreements between the news media, either collectively or individually, and the platforms.

I think it's very premature to make those declarations. We have absolutely no idea. I believe this will achieve its intent.

It will support journalists in my region and elsewhere in Quebec and Canada. I'm proud of what we've accomplished.

Thank you.

[The Clerk]

Dr. Fry, on the floor I have Mr. Julian and Mr. Waugh.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Go ahead, Mr. Julian.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I did commit to the Conservative House leader that I wouldn't say anything negative about Conservatives, but I will just note their ongoing hostility to CBC, which I find quite perplexing. We certainly saw it during the Harper years, during which CBC funding was absolutely gutted.

However, coming back to what we've achieved, we have adopted amendments that have helped to ensure that indigenous journalists are included in a very meaningful way in Bill C-18 and that they will benefit from that. We have ensured a lot more transparency in Bill C-18, which is certainly a lesson that has come out of the Australian model.

I want to note that of the 16 NDP amendments that were adopted by this committee, the most important one to my mind—and certainly to that of the independent online news publishers of Canada, the small players who are starting up right across the country and who are present in every community, including the Burnaby Beacon and the New West Anchor—is an amendment that allows journalists, even if they're part-time, to own or be a partner in a news business and not to deal at arm's length with the business. They are now open to Bill C-18, the online news act.

I am being heckled, Madam Chair, but I'll continue just the same.

What we've done is open the door to independent online news publishers right across this country. Dozens of publications, the community newspapers in Alberta and Saskatchewan, asked for this. They got that amendment, and that means that a two-person operation, even if they're working part time, even if they're partners and owners of the business, has access to Bill C-18. It is significant that small players right across the country, including those community newspapers in Alberta and Saskatchewan, will be able to get that access.

That is a significant amendment, Madam Chair, and I would note that the Conservatives voted against it, which is, I think, quite astounding, given what they have been saying about the act. Why would they oppose something that so clearly opens the door to the vast majority of the ethnic press, to community newspapers in Alberta and Saskatchewan, and of course to online news publishers?

I agree with Mr. Housefather that the bill is much improved. There are some aspects of transparency that I would have liked to see but that were not adopted by this committee. Generally the processes for Bill C-18 worked well. All members have tried to work in a constructive way, and we have a much better bill coming out of committee than we had going in.

I'd like to thank everyone who was involved in that, particularly the analysts, the clerks and the interpreters, who have helped us all through, and our officials from Canadian Heritage who have answered the questions in such a clear and effective way.

Thanks to you, Madam Chair, for your chairing and to Mr. Waugh for chairing part of this process as well, because that has helped us to bring this bill to a conclusion at committee as well.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you, Mr. Julian.

Martin, go ahead.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

I want to join my honourable colleagues in congratulating the committee on the work we have done.

Despite what our Conservative colleagues say, Madam Chair, we've just established a [Technical difficulty] that will help our media outlets to negotiate agreements and ensure that several media outlets will survive the crisis they have endured for too long now.

There are certainly losers in this story. I understand that the Conservatives are disappointed. Google and Facebook certainly won't be pleased with the outcome of our [Technical difficulty] today, but that was to be expected. Conservatives can rest assured that Google and Facebook will continue to be [Technical difficulty], because they did a great job representing them as we considered Bill C‑18.

Having said that, I want to send a message to the small media outlets, the regional newspapers and the local media in Quebec and Canada. If this bill doesn't work as well as we would like, although I feel it will, we will be there. Bills are never perfect. They can always be improved. We will be watching its implementation and are going to be there to monitor the activities between the businesses under this new law that's coming into force. I want them to know that we will never stop looking out for Quebec and Canadian media outlets and news businesses, especially the smaller ones.

On that note, Madam Chair, I also want to congratulate you for your work. I thank my colleague Mr. Waugh for his work as vice-chair. I salute all of my colleagues, because the atmosphere has generally been respectful, and I'm really proud of what we've accomplished, whether we agree or disagree on the outcome.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you, Mr. Champoux.

Is there anybody on the floor?

[The Clerk]

Yes, Dr. Fry. I have Mr. Waugh, Mrs. Thomas and Mr. Bittle.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Mr. Waugh, go ahead.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I want to thank everyone around the table.

It will be interesting. I totally agree with the Globe and Mail's article today, which refutes what Mr. Julian has said all along. It was the Liberals under Chrétien and Martin who destroyed the CBC funding, not Harper. I want to thank Konrad Yakabuski for the Globe and Mail report today. It clearly says, “Under the Trudeau Liberals, the CBC keeps cashing in”, as we're up to $1.3 billion plus the $42 million that they gave in the fall economic update.

The numbers are going to tell the story on this bill, if you don't mind my saying. The PBO has the number inflated to $180 million more than the department. They have $329 million that they feel is coming from the tech giants, and the department only had $150 million. When you get the big boys at the table spreading the $150 million, I think we're going to see the demise of local newspapers in Canada more than ever after this bill has passed.

You know, the Saskatoon berry pie used to be very big, and now the Saskatoon berry pie is only a tart, when we're going to leave Bill C-18. I think the future does not hold very well for small and medium newspapers. I'm really disappointed, as everybody knows, about the two reporters. I think it's going to have a big effect on the country. However, we'll see where it goes.

I want to thank everyone, as we head out of here before Christmas with Bill C-18.

Before we leave today, we do need to discuss next Tuesday and whether the judge is coming to talk about Hockey Canada.

Thanks, everybody.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you, Mr. Waugh.

Mrs. Thomas, go ahead.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Madam Chair, I was hoping that perhaps we could be provided with an update as to what Tuesday looks like for this committee.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

We will be doing that as soon as we have finished with everyone having their say.

Mr. Bittle, go ahead.

[Chris Bittle, Liberal, St. Catharines, ON]

Thank you so much, Madam Chair. My say will be brief.

I want to add my thanks to everyone on behalf of the Liberals: the clerks, the legislative clerks, our analysts, ministry staff, ministers' office staff—who have been particularly helpful to me—and our own staff. I want to say thank you to the interpreters.

I know there has been a lot of animosity. However, the good news is that I believe all the parties ran on the Australian model and we have achieved that—on to report stage and third reading.

I guess time will tell. I will agree with Mr. Waugh: time will tell. We've seen the results from Australia and they've been overwhelmingly positive. I'm usually not an optimistic person—I think everyone around the table will agree that I'm not—but I am optimistic about what this legislation does, what it will do and the impacts it will have on Canadian journalism.

Once again, thank you to everyone. I know it can be tense at times, but it has been a collaborative process.

Thank you so much, everyone.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you, Mr. Bittle.

Before we move on to discuss Tuesday's business, I just want to let everyone know that this afternoon I will be reporting Bill C-18 as amended to the House.

I want to echo what everybody has said. For a chair, the process is sometimes bumpy, but that is par for the course in terms of many political parties having different points of view. However, I would like to say that overall the ability of the committee to come together as a standing committee, to get this bill moving and to finish the clause-by-clause took a lot of collaboration. I want to thank everybody for collaborating so that the process went smoothly at the end of the day and so we can send this bill to the House before we rise for Christmas.

I also want to thank Kevin for pitching in there for me when I was in Poland and for pitching in when my computer did not want to work last week. I want to thank him for that.

I also want to thank everyone, including Mr. Méla, for giving me all my little pieces of things so that I could do it efficiently and effectively. I want to thank the officials from the Department of Canadian Heritage who came here and answered so many questions to actually make sure that everyone understood exactly what the bill is meant to do, what amendments are meant to do, etc.

I want to thank everybody and, of course, our clerk, Aimée, for making this process move very smoothly.

Finally, I'll ask Aimée to comment, but on Tuesday, as the committee had decided, we have asked Mr. Cromwell to come.

[Chris Bittle, Liberal, St. Catharines, ON]

On a point of order, Madam Chair—and I'm sorry to interrupt—I'm just wondering, if we're going to talk about sports, whether we can perhaps excuse anyone who doesn't want to or have to be here, unless the officials want to stay. They've done good work, and hopefully they can leave.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

They can, as I have thanked them, but obviously they're free to stay if they wish.

Let's move on. We've asked Mr. Cromwell to come on Tuesday. Perhaps the clerk can tell us whether or not he has agreed to come. She's nodding yes, so Mr. Cromwell will be coming on Tuesday.

Of course, as this committee decided a while ago, we're going to embark on a discussion of safe sport. We also agreed that the status of women standing committee is dealing with some of the elements of this, but we think that the element of safe sport is far broader than sexual misconduct. There are so many things that I personally have heard from many people about bullying in the system and putting down people in the system and how they are causing illnesses and psychological trauma to a lot of people in the system. I'm glad we're doing this study. I'm looking forward to it.

I'm hoping that we might also spare half an hour or so on Tuesday to maybe have some Christmas cheer and thank each other for working together in a very collegial manner. We could have a bit of Christmas cake, Aimée, and a little bit of tourtière. I don't know—I might trundle back a couple of bottles of B.C. wine with me for you guys, but let's just leave and spend the Christmas holidays and bring in our new year with a certain sense of camaraderie.

Thank you.

Anthony, go ahead.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Thank you so much, Madam Chair, and thank you for the great job you did over the course of these hearings.

I just want to make sure. I'm hoping we're going to have Justice Cromwell for more than just one hour. One hour leaves very little time for questions. I'm hoping that Justice Cromwell is being brought here for at least 90 minutes. I thought it was for two hours but if it's not, I'm hoping it's for at least 90 minutes. I just want to get clarification on that.

The second thing is that I saw in the committee minutes that we had a request from Skate Canada potentially related to an extension. I just want to stress to the committee that given that we're hitting the Christmas break, perhaps we could allow the clerk to agree to reasonable requests for extensions that come in from the six different sporting federations, if the clerk and the chair judge them to be reasonable, during that period so that we don't have to meet again each time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you, Anthony.

It would depend on Mr. Cromwell's availability. He's bringing with him a couple of people to help speak to the matter.

Aimée, will Mr. Cromwell be here for 90 minutes?

[The Clerk]

I invited Justice Cromwell for one hour, as I was instructed, but I can certainly increase the invitation and see if he is available to stay for however long the committee would like.

Was that 90 minutes or two hours?

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

It was an extra 30 minutes. We're going to spend the last half hour of the committee just getting together and “bonding”, for want of a better word.

[The Clerk]

Mrs. Thomas has her hand up.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Yes, Mrs. Thomas.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Just to affirm what Mr. Housefather is saying, we're requesting that Mr. Cromwell come for a minimum of 90 minutes and up to two hours. I believe there's consensus in the room for that.

If I'm understanding correctly, it's more than just, “Hey, would you like to?” It's like, “Hey, actually, this is the time of the committee, and we would anticipate that you'd be here for 90 to 120 minutes.”

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you, Mrs. Thomas.

I don't necessarily think we can actually tell witnesses, “You'd better be here, because we want you to be here for that time.” We ask them if they are available. I think the clerk will be doing that to ensure that we have the maximum amount of time with them.

Unless there is any further discussion, I think this meeting is deemed to be adjourned.

Thank you very much. See you on Tuesday.