Evidence of meeting #68 for Canadian Heritage in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was soccer.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry
Thank you very much.
I will now go to the New Democratic Party and Bonita Zarrillo.
Ms. Zarrillo, you have six minutes.
NDP
Bonita Zarrillo NDP Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC
Thank you so much.
I just want to say that Canada is behind you. You really have Canada behind you. We're just so happy and proud that you're coming out and doing this work. I know it's heavy, but the power is amazing.
I just want to say on behalf of the residents of Port Moody, Coquitlam, Anmore and Belcarra—which is right beside Burnaby, where there is a community centre named after you, Christine—that we are just so behind you and proud of this work. We know it's difficult.
There was some commentary today about the CSB deal. We're talking about withholding financials on revenue. We're talking about transparency not being there. We're talking about not having that trust around negotiating in good faith. I'm interested in exploring this CSB deal a bit more.
Janine, I don't know if you can share any more details about the CSB deal. I certainly would like to know, for this committee, what we can get from CSB on this deal. It seems really wrong that a third party would be taking the profits off the table, not funding the sport the way it should be and not using the channels that we as Canadians would all expect would support women's soccer in this country.
Player Representative, Canadian National Soccer Team Player, Canadian Soccer Player's Association
I'll reiterate what I said before.
It's been widely reported that this deal is confusing. I think we have to trust our instincts when we see details of this deal come to the public. It doesn't make a lot of sense.
We don't understand why members of the board would approve a deal like this, knowing that it puts a ceiling on the amount of revenue that can come in from sponsors and broadcasting. We've hit our heads multiple times without, as a singular entity, being able to sell our broadcast rights. We have to go through a third party. That makes things very difficult.
When you give a third party 100% control of where that goes, you then don't have that control. You have players asking questions about where the money is when we've come back with a gold medal and our men's team is playing in a World Cup for the first time in 36 years. You have players coming to the table and knocking on the door, asking the question.
First of all, we don't know what money is available. We don't know what we can negotiate for. Now we know that there's a limitation on that money. Generally what would be considered the largest pot of money for an association would be sponsorship revenue and broadcast revenue. We know that no matter how successful the women's and men's national teams are, there is a set amount of money. For us as players and for the future of our program, that is incredibly concerning.
Having an association decide in 2023, less than six months before our World Cup, that they want to be financially competent this year is very concerning as well—and frustrating. We have said many times that CSB needs to reopen the deal if possible and negotiate new avenues of revenue to come into the association. I think that's for CSB and Canada Soccer to figure out on their own. Also, there should be an inquiry and questions asked of Canadian Soccer Business and the executives at Canada Soccer who signed that deal. What were their intentions and knowledge of the future, considering that this deal could be in place until 2037?
Player Representative, Canadian National Soccer Team Player, Canadian Soccer Player's Association
Can I add something to that?
It's also important to realize that the money that comes into the CSB is going to help fund the Canadian Premier League, which is a male professional league. There's nothing in place for women that is equal. On the backs of both the women's and men's national team and our success, that money is going to fund the men's league in Canada, which helped bring the World Cup here. There's nothing equal to that on the women's side here in Canada.
NDP
Bonita Zarrillo NDP Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC
You deserve to be able to see that. You deserve to see transparency around how that money is being allocated and the percentage split. You definitely deserve to see that.
You also deserve to see that deal and the signatures on that deal. Has that been shared with you? Have you seen the contract and who signed it? I think that's a big one. You should have access to those numbers and those financials.
You mentioned when you began that there's secrecy and obstruction. Canada Soccer has used that secrecy and that obstruction to hide how much money it actually had to pay the women over time. I'm really disappointed in that. I hope we can get to the bottom of that, Madam Chair.
We have some young folks watching. I know there are some in my community too. This is about the future too. It's been mentioned here.
I want to hear some of the stories.
Maybe, Sophie, you could talk to me. You mentioned equal treatment and equal allocation of resources. This starts when players are young. I was a city councillor, and I know that it was hard to get allocation for women and girls in sport. It was hard to get better fields. We got the worst fields and the worst times. I wonder if you could share what it's been like coming up to the professional level from when you started, and what we can do to fix that too.
Player Representative, Canadian National Soccer Team Player, Canadian Soccer Player's Association
When I was growing up, there was no pathway, really, for women's teams. You had no women's soccer on TV. You didn't have any of that.
Right now, we're so grateful for women's soccer, but our games are still not on TV. That's lacking, especially in terms of getting young players to engage in the sport. For us, the big thing is our youth programming. There's no step-by-step process for following dreams or inspiring dreams or trying to make it as a professional athlete, as a woman soccer player in Canada.
I talked about how we have one camp this year, and that's for one age group—that's not even for all the age groups. Sincy and I were talking about it and reminiscing. We had so many camps growing up. That's where our memories were made; that's where our skin got toughened and that's where coaches discovered us so that we could make it to the national team. We're doing a disservice to our youth, and it breaks my heart. They deserve this, and I think you're going to start seeing the repercussions of it very, very soon.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry
You can follow that thought up with another question when there is one.
We're going to go to a second round, and this one is for five minutes.
We begin with the Conservative Party and Marilyn Gladu.
Marilyn, you have five minutes, please.
Conservative
Marilyn Gladu Conservative Sarnia—Lambton, ON
Thank you, Chair, and thank you to the witnesses for being here.
One of the benefits of coming to a parliamentary committee is that sometimes when we shine the light on a subject it changes the attitude of the organization.
For example, when Hockey Canada first came here, they thought they had a bit of a communications problem, and at the end they saw the nature of the beast and cleared their whole executive level and put major measures in place. When Gymnastics Canada heard that they were coming to committee, Ian Moss, their CEO, stepped down.
I'm hopeful that by the fact that you are here today, this deal, which has just come out in the press and says they're going to pay you equally, comes to fruition. However, The Globe and Mail is reporting this:
Canada Soccer says its proposed labour deal would pay the teams the same match fee, with the squads sharing equally in competition prize money...[b]ut Canada Soccer acknowledged that equal pay does not mean equal dollars when it comes to team budgets, saying the competitive calendar and FIFA World Cup qualifications pathway for the men comes with “very different costs” than that of the women.
It seems to me that there's still an inequity in the way that the teams are being treated.
One question I have for you is, does Sport Canada fund Soccer Canada, or is there direct funding from the federal government?
Player Representative, Canadian National Soccer Team Player, Canadian Soccer Player's Association
I don't think we know the answer to that, and I think it points a lot more towards the lack of transparency in the financials. We don't actually know where all the money that's coming in is coming from.
Conservative
Conservative
Marilyn Gladu Conservative Sarnia—Lambton, ON
My problem is this. We have a feminist Prime Minister. We have a government that has put pay equity in place. I sat on the pay equity committee, and I was the chair of the status of women committee for years, fighting for the equality of women. We have an analysis called “gender-based analysis plus” that is supposed to be done on every piece of legislation and on all the funding that goes out the door.
My question is, what has the Minister of Sport done to ensure that on the funding that is coming eventually to Canada Soccer, gender equity is a part of it?
Player Representative, Canadian National Soccer Team Player, Canadian Soccer Player's Association
As of right now, nothing.
Conservative
Marilyn Gladu Conservative Sarnia—Lambton, ON
Nothing. Well, that's what I expected, sadly.
Let me ask you a question about what the government should be doing to get equity, and not just pay equity. You talked about playing conditions and treatment. What is needed in order to make this an even playing field, no pun intended?
Player Representative, Canadian National Soccer Team Player, Canadian Soccer Player's Association
It's mandating that governing bodies provide more granular reporting around where their funds are being allocated. If you have a certain amount of money for the men to operate on the level they're able to, you should then be using as much money as possible to create the same situation for the women's team.
You said something about the men having a different schedule from us. That goes back to what I said about FIFA being different. They have a Concacaf Nations League. It was referred to by our federation. Their games are mandatory, meaning they view our games as optional, friendly games. Our fear is that if we don't have it written in our contracts that we must use every window of the year, we will lose windows, because the men's games are mandatory and ours are not.
To answer your question, there has to be some kind of mandate that forces federations to provide clear and honest transparency about where their funds are being used. If there are more windows the men must use in a year, the women's team should absolutely have to use all the FIFA windows in their year, as well. Naturally, that may sometimes result in more or fewer games played. We can't control that. We don't control that, as players, or as a federation. There should be a mechanism in place to offset that.
Conservative
Marilyn Gladu Conservative Sarnia—Lambton, ON
I would think the women's team is way more successful than the men's team. In other sports, it works this way: When the sport and players are very successful, the players get salaries of millions of dollars.
Is that not happening in soccer, because of discrimination?
Player Representative, Canadian National Soccer Team Player, Canadian Soccer Player's Association
That's a whole different story we could spend days talking about.
Yes, I assume that, if we were playing for PSG or whatever, we would be making millions of dollars—which we aren't.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry
Thank you very much, Marilyn.
I'll now go to the second questioner for the Liberal Party, Anthony Housefather.
You have five minutes, Anthony.
Liberal
Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
First, I thank all four of you for being here today. It is so appreciated. You've done Canada so proud on the field: bronze in 2012 and 2016, gold in 2021, and all the other victories. Thank you.
By being here today, as Marilyn mentioned, not only are we shedding light on stuff, but we can also deal with transparency and governance. We're mandated to look at all the federations and see how they can improve transparency and governance. One thing we can do, and which we have done, is summon the contract—the CBA—so we can actually see it. To the extent we want to share those terms.... We're not just going to read about it in The Globe and Mail, in terms of what it may or may not say.
Let me ask you a few questions.
One, did anyone try to discourage you from coming here to testify before the committee today, whether Canada Soccer, Concacaf or FIFA?
Player Representative, Canadian National Soccer Team Player, Canadian Soccer Player's Association
A concern was raised, through Canada Soccer, about how this could potentially conflict with FIFA's interference with government policy. I wouldn't say it was a threat. There was a concern raised by Canada Soccer about how this could potentially be in conflict with its policy.
Liberal
Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC
I think that's something we'd all want to follow up on with Canada Soccer. Trying to stop people from coming before a parliamentary committee is a very serious matter. Thank you for sharing that.
I also want to ask about Nick Bontis, who recently left the position of president of Canada Soccer. Reportedly, he's earning $125,000 for being on the board of Concacaf, of which Victor Montagliani is the president.
Do any women playing for the Canadian national soccer team get $125,000 a year from the national team, outside of anything they're earning from the women's soccer league in the U.S.?
Player Representative, Canadian National Soccer Team Player, Canadian Soccer Player's Association
No.
Liberal
Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC
Just by sitting on a board that meets a few times a year.... I think that sheds a lot of light on everything, in terms of how Canada Soccer is run.
His resignation came at a weird time. It was around the time when there were calls for nominations for the board of Canada Soccer. My understanding is that, as a result of his leaving, Ms. Crooks was left almost unopposed to become the president of Canada Soccer.
Do you believe there should be a return to calls for nomination, in order to allow for a competitive process, so everybody who wants to can put their name forward to join the Canada Soccer board?
Player Representative, Canadian National Soccer Team Player, Canadian Soccer Player's Association
The short answer is yes. Obviously, being females, we appreciate seeing Charmaine in the position. However, she has been part of the higher-ups in Canada Soccer for a long time. During her tenure, she has shown nothing to the women's national team that proves she's there fighting for us. Since she has been elected president, she has not reached out. In fact, her first action involving the women's national team was releasing that statement earlier today.