Evidence of meeting #69 for Canadian Heritage in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was google.
A recording is available from Parliament.
2 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry
I am sorry. The time is up.
I think that, as chair, I have to say that I am having a difficult time when questions are pretty clear. They're clear to me—I think they're very clear in the way they're being asked—and they are not being answered. I want to put on the record that I am noting this.
Your time is now up, Ms. Mathyssen, and I am sorry that you did not get your answers.
We will move to Mr. Kevin Waugh for five minutes for the Conservatives.
2 p.m.
Conservative
Kevin Waugh Conservative Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK
Thank you, Madam Chair.
I agree with you; we're not getting a lot of answers, and we're very disappointed in your testimony today, Ms. Geremia. You continue to deflect a lot of the questions, and that's not what Canadians are looking for.
There were 1.2 million Canadians who were shut out, 4% of the population who use Google, and you never told people that you were blocking them out. You just arbitrarily did it, which is another issue I have with your search engines.
How many have been affected? It was 1.2 million. Why didn't you disclose this in advance to people at home who would be searching particular sites and all of a sudden found nothing? They think it's their phone or their iPad, when in fact it's you playing with them. Why didn't you tell us in advance?
2:05 p.m.
Vice President and Country Manager, Google Canada
I think that with product testing, there are nuances on tests, and it's the normal course of business that we don't disclose tests.
Jason is our—
2:05 p.m.
Conservative
2:05 p.m.
Some hon. members
Oh, oh!
2:05 p.m.
Conservative
Kevin Waugh Conservative Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK
I'm sorry. I'm done.
We're talking to you. My questions are for you.
In the course of less than an hour, we have found out that you've now tested 11,500 times in this country. We don't know what you're testing, but you have confirmed 11,500 test results. You're going through product tests. I don't know what you're testing. You don't tell Canadians what you're testing.
It's the first time Canadians have even heard of product testing up until a week ago, so how long are you going to continue with 4% of the population—1.2 million serious Canadians, I might add—on whom you're going to continue this product testing on what you're looking for? In fact, what are you looking for?
2:05 p.m.
Vice President and Country Manager, Google Canada
Product testing is really a normal part of any technology company in Canada and beyond. A lot of product tests might be to improve user experience. It might be to help understand, for example, where drop-off rates are and how things can work better. It is an A/B test. One of the reasons it is done is that you want the results to be thoughtful on this.
There are tests going on all the time on trying to understand, and it's really a core part of improving user experience and improving user outcomes in technology. It is a very common practice for almost any technology company in Canada.
2:05 p.m.
Conservative
Kevin Waugh Conservative Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK
Could you give the committee the list of product tests you have done in this country in 2023? I'm going to narrow it down for you. After this committee, can you give us a list of the product testing you have done in this country from January 1, 2023 until today, in March? We have no idea.
I say that because, in the last two weeks...Beijing interference in this country. I say it's Google interference now. I don't know what you're testing for. Canadians don't know what you're testing for. We have no idea. Guess what? You're going to give us the list, because I'm going to demand it from Google Canada. Give us a list of what you're product testing on Canadians.
Today we find out that 1.2 million—4% of the population—happen to.... Their democratic right has been put to the side, wouldn't you say? I don't know. You might have Google-tested me. I might be one of the 1.2 million who.... All of a sudden, I can't get the Google search. Is that fair to me—not knowing you're doing this to me or other Canadians?
I don't think that's fair. You're a $1.2- to $1.3-trillion company. I think you exceeded your boundaries. I think Canadians would also say, today, that Google has exceeded its boundaries. I know you're upset about Bill C-18 and want product testing and all of that, but that's not what we're here for. I think Google has overstepped its boundaries in this country in deciding what the product testing is all about. We have no idea.
I would like to assure this committee that you will give us a list of what Google, in this country, has done for product testing in the last two and a half months. That will give Mr. Kee something to do, because I don't really want to hear from him. That will give him something to do when we leave committee today.
Thank you.
2:05 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry
Thank you very much, Mr. Waugh.
We'll go to the Liberal Party of Canada and Chris Bittle.
You have five minutes, Chris.
2:05 p.m.
Liberal
Chris Bittle Liberal St. Catharines, ON
Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
What we've seen here today is truly disgusting. In my seven years, I have never seen a witness sworn in mid-testimony. The members of this committee don't think you're being truthful, Ms. Geremia. It's as straightforward as that. You've been evasive to every single member of this committee. Each of us was democratically elected to represent our constituents. You pretend to not know anything. If it's truthful....
I think your shareholders would be appalled. I think you're being evasive. You owe it to the Canadian people to answer these questions. You do billions of dollars' worth of business here. Canadians expect answers. We are here to ask them. I expect answers.
These will be very clear questions.
Here's the first one: You're currently being investigated in multiple jurisdictions—the EU, the U.K. and the United States—for abusing market power. If there were a Canadian news story confirming you are being sued by the United States Department of Justice and eight states, including California, over your company's dominance in ad tech, Canadians would be unable to access it through a normal Google news search.
Is that correct? Answer yes or no.
2:10 p.m.
Vice President and Country Manager, Google Canada
I'm sorry. Could you repeat the question, please?
2:10 p.m.
Liberal
Chris Bittle Liberal St. Catharines, ON
You're being sued in the United States by the Department of Justice for your monopolistic tendencies. If there were a Canadian news story on that, would it be blocked to users in Canada, yes or no?
2:10 p.m.
Vice President and Country Manager, Google Canada
Respectfully, I can't comment on U.S. legislation.
2:10 p.m.
Liberal
Chris Bittle Liberal St. Catharines, ON
It's yes or no. Would that story be blocked? Don't comment on the legislation. Would the story be blocked?
You're under oath, Ms. Geremia.
2:10 p.m.
Vice President and Country Manager, Google Canada
I don't understand the question.
2:10 p.m.
Liberal
Chris Bittle Liberal St. Catharines, ON
I don't think you understand the gravity of this—a charge of perjury.
Would that be blocked for users in this country? If there were a Canadian news story about you being sued by the United States Department of Justice, would it be blocked, yes or no?
2:10 p.m.
Vice President and Country Manager, Google Canada
If there was a story that was—
2:10 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry
Excuse me, Ms. Geremia, but the question is clear to me. Can you answer, please?
2:10 p.m.
Vice President and Country Manager, Google Canada
If it was a Canadian story within the ambit of the test, and the arm of the test was related to that, then the stories regarding that could [Inaudible—Editor].
2:10 p.m.
Liberal
Chris Bittle Liberal St. Catharines, ON
I will take that as a yes. It would be blocked.
I'll even drill down a bit. Before I came up to Ottawa, I bought a car seat for my daughter. I used your product. I used Google to google the car seat. If there were a Canadian news story about the safety and efficacy of that car seat, it could be blocked under this test.
Isn't that true?
2:10 p.m.
Vice President and Country Manager, Google Canada
If this were available to Canadians within the test, that is a yes.
2:10 p.m.
Liberal
Chris Bittle Liberal St. Catharines, ON
Yes. Thank you.
Merrick Garland, the United States attorney general, has stated that “for 15 years, Google has pursued a course of anti-competitive conduct that has allowed it to halt the rise of rival technologies, manipulate [ad] auction mechanics to insulate itself from competition, and force advertisers and publishers to use its tools.”
If there were a Canadian news story about that, it would be blocked under this test. Is that correct?
2:10 p.m.
Vice President and Country Manager, Google Canada
We're talking about news within the test, with very specific examples. It's not clear to me if you want me to just reply to that, or if you would like me to reply to—
2:10 p.m.
Liberal
Chris Bittle Liberal St. Catharines, ON
It's just a very specific example. If there were a Canadian news story about that, would it be blocked?