Canadian Heritage Committee on March 10th, 2023

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Thank you. Did Google block users from being able to see content from the specific Canadian news organizations that already have secret deals with Google?

[Jason Kee]

The Google news showcase commercial arrangements had no bearing on the application of the test. Again, those are not secret, nor is the test.

The specific definitions of eligible news business and the application of Bill C-18 were the basis on which the tests were being undertaken, because it was really to understand what the impact would be on both the product and the users in the event that we were no longer able to serve links.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Okay, that's interesting. Am I out?

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

I'm sorry, Ms. Hepfner. Yes, you're out of time.

Thank you very much.

The next person to speak will be Martin Champoux for the Bloc.

You have two and a half minutes, please, Martin.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Ms. Geremia, I found it very interesting to hear you deny that these measures are having a disproportionate impact on information workers, contrary to what most respectable organizations, including Unifor, one of the largest unions in the communications sector, are saying. You have repeatedly responded that the questions you were asked were outside your area of expertise, but this one you really did answer with a confidence that bowled me over.

On what basis are you deciding at this point in your testing that your measures do not impact the work of the information workers represented by Unifor and these other organizations? What criteria are you able to rely on with such confidence at this point in time, when your tests are not even finished?

[Sabrina Geremia]

Testing is really part of what technology companies do, what Google does, and it's very clear that the samples in A/B tests, etc., need to be appropriately thought through and they are not—

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Ms. Geremia, on what basis do you say that this has no impact? Have you received the results of your tests? Are you able to say that the quality of information and the work of information professionals is indeed not affected in any way by these measures? Have you received reports, results of your tests that confirm that you are right, while the workers say that it is quite the opposite?

[Sabrina Geremia]

It's just not something that we do in testing. I'd like to pass to Jason to elaborate more. He's an expert in this area.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

There is no need, Ms. Geremia. I'll leave my question hanging, because I won't get the answer. I think you are telling us absolutely nothing about this. You can't contradict the people who are being tested now.

At every meeting this committee has held to study this issue, Google representatives have always said that they do not agree with the bill, but that they will comply with the legislation, as they do in every country where they do business.

Ms. Geremia, Bill C‑18 is going to pass, whether you like it or not. Since Google claims to act as a good corporate citizen in every country it does business in, will it comply with the legislation, yes or no?

[Sabrina Geremia]

Yes.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

There, thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

I now go to the New Democratic Party, Ms. Mathyssen, for two and a half minutes, please.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Was the decision to censor the media through this test made by Google Canada Corporation or the parent company?

[Sabrina Geremia]

Madam Chair, I want to just disagree with the premise of the member's question. News is available. This was a test in response to legislation that fundamentally changes the legal landscape for linking in Canada. This is the foundation on which people share links across the open web, and we cannot assume that we can link in the same way that we've linked before.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

You have disagreed before; however, was the decision to run this test that of Google Canada Corporation or your parent company?

[Sabrina Geremia]

It's the normal course of business that product teams are going to work with legal teams. There are going to be other experts, and, when appropriate, our leadership is informed to help understand potential tests and decisions.

Again, these are product tests. No product decisions have been made.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Was the conduct of this product test a decision that was made by Google corporate in Canada, or was it made by the parent company?

[Sabrina Geremia]

In the normal course of business, product teams, legal teams and leadership are all involved in understanding this and the impact of legislation on our products.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Madam Chair....

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

I would like to suggest that it was a pretty clear question, and I would like you to answer it, please, Ms. Geremia.

[Sabrina Geremia]

I think I've been clear that, when appropriate, leadership is involved in understanding a product's impacts and understanding testing that involves legislation.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Is it normal for senior leadership to propose these A/B tests?

[Sabrina Geremia]

A/B testing is a normal course of business. It is a normal course of business across everything we do. There are thousands of tests that we do every year.

This is legislation that has broadened and has broadened so much wider—

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

This isn't a question about the legislation. I'm sorry; this is about the tests.

[Sabrina Geremia]

Can you repeat the question, please?