Evidence of meeting #69 for Canadian Heritage in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was google.
A recording is available from Parliament.
2:20 p.m.
Liberal
2:20 p.m.
Vice President and Country Manager, Google Canada
It's common practice for leaders to be aware of product testing.
2:20 p.m.
Liberal
Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC
There are thousands of tests that you have advised this committee that you do, and you're telling me that the chief legal officer and the CEO of Google would be aware of them. All over the world, Google does this testing, yet you're saying that these two individuals would be aware of this multiplicity of thousands of tests.
Answer yes or no: Was this test done in an unusual way? Were more senior executives at Google aware of this testing than of other standard tests at Google?
2:20 p.m.
Vice President and Country Manager, Google Canada
Because of the nature of this test, yes, senior leadership is aware.
It's normal practice for business for senior leadership to be aware.
2:20 p.m.
Liberal
Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC
Thank you.
I come from the tech world. It would not be normal practice for senior leadership to be aware of normal testing. It would be if it was an unusual test of this type of scope.
Did you attempt to hide from Canadians the fact that you were doing this testing, or did you intend that Canadians would become aware of it?
2:20 p.m.
Vice President and Country Manager, Google Canada
Respectfully, Madam Chair, it's very difficult to do a test and to give notice of the test. Tests are not done across search and other products with acknowledgement. That's just standard course for most tech companies in the business.
2:20 p.m.
Liberal
Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC
Ms. Geremia, you were aware that this is a very unusual type of test.
My question is whether you believed Canadians would eventually become aware of this testing. Answer yes or no.
Remember that in Australia, you did this and people became aware of it because news organizations caught you.
Did you believe that Canadians would become aware of this test when you authorized it?
2:20 p.m.
Vice President and Country Manager, Google Canada
In relation to the test—which, again, is a test; it's not a product decision—there is a chance that we were aware that folks would understand this and would see this, as you mentioned—
2:20 p.m.
Liberal
Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC
I think that you were aware, and I think you wanted us to be aware. You wanted the House of Commons and the Senate, particularly, which will now vote on Bill C-18, to be aware of this threat.
I think that you intentionally intended to make Canadians aware of it, so that we would be afraid to pass Bill C-18 in the Senate because of the threat that you would block news content.
Was that not the real reason you did this test, and did it with this timing?
2:20 p.m.
Vice President and Country Manager, Google Canada
With respect, Madam Chair, the timing of it was because the committee process broadens the eligibility of news so significantly that there's so much detail that we don't understand. It is pretty normal to do tests. I understand—
2:20 p.m.
Vice President and Country Manager, Google Canada
—the gravity of what you're saying, but—
2:20 p.m.
Liberal
Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC
Right, so my question again is.... You knew that Canadians would become aware and what the end result would be. This was an attempt to pressure parliamentarians to do the amendments in the Senate that Google wanted for Bill C-18, and that seems to me to be the end result of what you actually intended to do.
I have one other question.
2:25 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry
I'm sorry. Your five minutes are up, Anthony.
Now I'm going to go to Mr. Champoux and the Bloc.
Martin, you have two and a half minutes.
2:25 p.m.
Bloc
Martin Champoux Bloc Drummond, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Ms. Geremia, earlier my colleagues, Mr. Bittle and Mr. Housefather, gave you some examples. Mr. Bittle talked about some of the impacts that your measures could have on the lives of Quebeckers and Canadians. These impacts are very important. As you know, the Google search engine is so widely used and so dominant in the market that it has become a verb: when you want to know something, you go and google it. It's the same in English, and it's probably the same in other languages.
When you occupy such a prominent position in an industry that affects the lives of all the citizens of a country, it comes with responsibilities, which I don't think you understand, if I am to believe the beginning of your testimony. However, I'm going to give you a chance to look good, because it hasn't been a very good afternoon for you so far.
The Google code of conduct ends like this:
“don’t be evil, and if you see something that you think isn’t right—speak up!”
Earlier, you were given examples of situations that could seriously endanger the lives of Quebeckers and Canadians, very specific situations, but still very possible.
Unbeknownst to Canadians, you have conducted tests that may have significant implications. Will you now commit to stopping these tests that we all agree are unjustifiable? Will you commit to notifying each and every one of the approximately 1.2 million Canadians affected that they are the subject of these tests, so that if necessary they can turn to other means of information rather than thinking that the information is simply not available? Will you commit, in the future, to informing Quebeckers and Canadians that they will be the subject of such tests by your company, if any?
These are questions that require a quick answer and a sincere commitment. What we have heard today, Ms. Geremia, is not very satisfactory.
2:25 p.m.
Vice President and Country Manager, Google Canada
These are product tests. They have a duration and—
2:25 p.m.
Bloc
Martin Champoux Bloc Drummond, QC
They have repercussions too, Ms. Geremia.
I'm asking you a very simple question: will you commit to notifying people who are affected by your tests now and in the future, yes or no? You still have five seconds to answer me.
2:25 p.m.
Vice President and Country Manager, Google Canada
I will need to take that back to the team and get back to you. They will need to get back to you. I don't have the answer to that.
2:25 p.m.
Bloc
2:25 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry
Thank you. We will expect that response to be sent to the clerk of this committee.
Now we go to Ms. Mathyssen for the NDP for two and a half minutes, please.
2:25 p.m.
NDP
Lindsay Mathyssen NDP London—Fanshawe, ON
Thank you.
I asked earlier about the preparation that you underwent, Ms. Geremia, for this meeting, understanding what was at stake here. Can you tell me, when you were preparing for this, did you meet with your government relations lobbyist team?
Did you discuss the impact of this testing and censorship with your government relations team?
2:25 p.m.
Vice President and Country Manager, Google Canada
News is available in Canada, and I think I've mentioned that before. Yes, I've had discussions with the government relations team in response to the request to appear at this committee.
2:25 p.m.
NDP
Lindsay Mathyssen NDP London—Fanshawe, ON
Did you discuss what, ultimately, Mr. Housefather was trying to get at in terms of the timing of this committee, the timing of your testing and the timing of the Senate's passage of Bill C-18?
2:25 p.m.
Vice President and Country Manager, Google Canada
With respect, Madam Chair, we're conducting tests to understand product impacts on legislation that's not finished. The committee phase broadened it. It just became so vague and so unclear, with so many details sent to a second phase.
There's never really a good time for testing. We did the testing to try to understand potential impact. We are aware that the bill is not finalized yet.