Canadian Heritage Committee on March 10th, 2023

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

I think Canadians will think what I asked was very clear.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you very much.

I go to the Bloc Québécois and Martin Champoux.

Martin, you have six minutes, please.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Ms. Geremia, I am going to follow up on my colleague Mr. Housefather's comments. The motion that was passed by this committee directs “Alphabet Inc. and all of its subsidiaries, including Google, to provide: (a) any and all internal or external communications (including, but not limited to, emails, texts or other forms of messages) related to actions it planned to take [...] in relation to Canada's Bill C-18 [...]”.

To your knowledge, has there been any communication internally regarding Bill C-18 at Alphabet Inc., Google or any of the divisions?

[Sabrina Geremia]

I am not close to the details on the document request. I am aware that there have been documents provided—

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

I'm going to interrupt you, Ms. Geremia.

The question is not whether you know what the documents are, but whether there were internal communications or not. You are a multinational company. Are you trying to tell the committee members that there were no internal communications?

You've never mentioned them. You come before the committee to testify on Bill C‑18, in response to which you are doing pseudo-tests, and you tell me that there were no internal communications.

My question is extremely simple: were there internal communications, yes or no?

[Sabrina Geremia]

Madam Chair, in the course of normal business, product experts, legal experts and, in some cases, leadership are made aware of product tests.

You can also speak to my expert, Jason, who is here. He is an expert in search, ads and news.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Ms. Geremia, we'll move on. Obviously, this question makes you uncomfortable.

We will expect Google to comply with this committee's request and eventually, and as quickly as possible, provide the documents that have been requested, because they are documents that are relevant to Quebeckers and Canadians. Your current manoeuvres have repercussions and are of concern to many people.

In your opening remarks, you said that one of your criticisms of Bill C‑18 is that it would encourage the creation of cheap clickbait traps at the expense of quality journalism. You also said that there is no clear commitment to a code of ethics for qualifying companies, which threatens the standards of journalism in Canada.

Ms. Geremia, are you familiar with Bill C‑18?

[Sabrina Geremia]

Excuse me, Madam Chair. The translation has both the English and the French at the same level.

Is it possible to repeat the question? I feel like I'm hearing both at the same time, and I'm struggling to hear the question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

I'll suspend your time, Martin, while we check what is going on here.

Thank you for flagging that, Ms. Geremia.

We should try it again. It should be good now.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Do you still hear the interpretation at the same time as the French?

[Sabrina Geremia]

I am hearing you in French right now.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Are you sure you're on the English channel?

[Sabrina Geremia]

I apologize, Madam Chair. I'm on the English channel. I've confirmed that. I'm hearing French, but I'm not hearing the translation now.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

We will suspend again until we find the reason for this.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

I call the meeting back to order.

Thank you very much. We will continue with the timing.

Mr. Champoux, you got yourself some good time here. We suspended everything, so you can start again, but not from scratch.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Ms. Geremia, before we recessed, I was asking you if you were familiar with Bill C‑18.

The premise of my question was that Google accuses Bill C‑18 of endangering quality journalism by not specifying journalistic ethics criteria for determining corporate eligibility.

So I'm asking you again, are you familiar with Bill C‑18 and do you know it well?

[Sabrina Geremia]

I have read the bill.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

That's fine.

In that case, if you have read the bill, you should know that there are eligibility criteria in clause 27, specifically in subparagraph 27(1)(b)(iv), resulting from an amendment that the Bloc Québécois had added and which was unanimously and enthusiastically adopted. According to this subparagraph, a news business is designated as eligible if it:

is either a member of a recognized journalistic association and follows the code of ethics of a recognized journalistic association, or has its own code of ethics whose standards of professional conduct require adherence to the recognized processes and principles of the journalism profession, including fairness, independence and rigour in reporting news and handling sources;

Tell me, Ms. Geremia, what more does it take for an eligible company to be considered a respectable journalistic enterprise?

[Sabrina Geremia]

It's an important question.

I think the answer is in the nuance. There are different standards of ethics for different classes. There's QCJO and there are others.

I'd like to pass it to Jason, who is a real expert in this area and can shed more light on the differences.

[Jason Kee]

Thank you.

Certainly, Mr. Champoux, the introduction of the new code of ethics requirements was appreciated, but, as Ms. Geremia acknowledged, the challenge is that it does not apply evenly to all the different classes of all the news businesses that were being developed.

We have QCJO, which obviously is already in its own class and has undertaken a review, but also we have the addition of community and campus broadcasters, for example. They're not going to be subject to code of ethics requirements. In fact, technically speaking, they are not even required to produce news to be eligible for a broadcast licence, but they're automatically an eligible news business by virtue of having a broadcast licence, so the challenge that we find is that the code of ethics requirements do not apply equally to all of them, nor was there any criteria or process around how those codes of ethics will be evaluated as they're developed.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

I think you are giving this clause a very broad interpretation, Mr. Kee.

Ms. Geremia, you said earlier that the news was still available, that people could still find it. Do you realize that Google occupies an overarching space in people's lives, not only in the lives of citizens in general, but also in the lives of journalists, who use your search engine to do their work?

Do you realize that by blocking access for these people, you yourself are jeopardizing the quality of information, because you are preventing professional journalists from doing their job by blocking their content? That's a fact, and we know of some cases.

Do you agree that these manoeuvres, disguised as tests, are in fact unfair pressure tactics and that you should back down, stop these tests immediately and comply with the legislation that will be put in place? Do you not agree?

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

We are now 17 seconds over time for this, so perhaps, Ms. Geremia, you may want to respond to that in another question later on.

I will now go to Ms. Mathyssen for the New Democrats for six minutes, please.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

To build on what was covered before, Ms. Geremia, you said that the request for information that was made by this committee was very, very broad and that you weren't given a lot of time.

Because the committee is clearly not satisfied with the information that has been given, when do you intend to provide this committee with all the information it has requested?

[Sabrina Geremia]

My understanding is that we have provided background documents on the issue of interest to the committee.

Our experts and teams are going to continue to evaluate this document request. I know they're being collaborative. They are working with you, and they are taking the next steps with this.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

As the head of this company, I imagine that you could set deadlines for your teams to provide that information. Would you be willing today to ensure that this committee gets the information, say, in another week? We're on a constituency week next week, so we would have it by the time this committee returns.