Canadian Heritage Committee on April 20th, 2023

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

I very much appreciate that it's voluntary, because this is a significant issue in our country. When we don't get the significant people who we believe have the answers that we more likely would like to hear, it creates a feeling of animosity. That's what you're dealing with. You've created that by making that choice. Do you understand that?

[Kent Walker]

Certainly, we have no desire to create animosity. It's quite the contrary. We hope to continue to work constructively with Parliament on a better solution toward a shared set of concerns.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

Thank you. I appreciate the effort for you to be here and to answer in that way.

You mentioned a couple of things. You talked about creating a fund. There are different numbers that pop up. We heard the number that you may have for Taiwan. We know the U.K. is looking at a number; it is looking at money. When you talk about a fund, what number would you talk about for Canada?

[Richard Gingras]

First of all, with regard to a fund, we think there are many notable advantages to that. I want to clarify—

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

I understand those advantages, sir, but I'm looking for a number. You may not want to negotiate with me, but you're bringing it up. You're bringing up the fund, and you mentioned it many times. Put the number on the table.

[Richard Gingras]

It's not for us to set a number, nor has there been a number set for Bill C-18. I would hope and expect it would be a number that would actually be appropriate to our business interests and to how we can continue to properly run our business.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

I agree with that. Of course you're not going to give us hundreds of billions and I understand that. However, you keep referring to the fund. For us to have validity in what you're talking about, there has to be a number out there. We hear it's $300 million. We hear it's 75% that you've already negotiated away.

I represent 13 weekly newspapers in my riding. Sir, frankly, I don't think they're going to get two cents out of this thing. You can say whatever you want. I meet with the owner-publishers of those papers. They know what the result is going to be, unless there is significantly more money in it that hasn't already been negotiated away.

[Kent Walker]

Maybe I could take a shot at this.

I think our approach to this would be consistent with what we've done in Europe and other countries around the world, to enter into agreements that reflect the benefit that newspapers and publishers get from traffic from Google but also recognize the contributions they are making. In Canada we're not looking to do something dramatically different from what we've done in countries around the world. Quite the contrary, we want to try to find a way that's sustainable for everybody here.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

Have you negotiated already for fund money for media in this country ?

[Richard Gingras]

I—

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

Have you negotiated? Are there deals you've made on the table already?

[Richard Gingras]

We have entered into arrangements with publishers in Canada as part of a program called Showcase. So, yes, the answer to that is that we have entered into such agreements.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

You must then have a number as a total you would use for that fund you're negotiating. Do you have a number you could give me, what your maximum would be to negotiate the total agreements?

[Richard Gingras]

I think, as Kent said, it would be important to reflect the total value of what we already—

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

Thank you. If you're not going to give me the number, that's fine.

Could you break down in your analysis—because I know you do a lot of analysis—how many news links come out of weekly papers in this country?

[Richard Gingras]

I wouldn't know that answer at this time.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

Could you find that?

[Richard Gingras]

You mean out of weekly newspapers online? I guess it's theoretically possible. It would be, I think, quite difficult. It's not clear to us, when we simply look at sites what their publication frequencies are. We can take that request back.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

I would appreciate that, because that's a critical piece for the weekly newspapers. As I say, I don't have a daily newspaper in my riding. I have 13 weeklies. Those are the lifeblood of my communities.

[Richard Gingras]

I think what we might be able to do is give a better indication of local versus national, for instance, but we'll do our best to advise.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

I appreciate that.

The Globe and Mail put out a news article this week called “Google devises radical changes to stay on top”. Are you familiar with this article?

[Richard Gingras]

I am not.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

When it first showed up you could find it using Google, but within hours, it disappeared. Do you know how long it takes to find that article since then? You buried it.

[Richard Gingras]

I'm sorry, sir. I'm not familiar with that, but we certainly do not bury articles.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

You did with that one. It's gone. Try to find it now. It was on your site and within hours, it disappeared. It's one that says, ”Google devises radical changes to stay on top”. It wasn't in support of what you do and it disappeared off your site.