Evidence of meeting #75 for Canadian Heritage in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was walker.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:35 p.m.
Vice-President, News, Google LLC
With respect to the question, I'd be glad to hear further details, but I can assure you that is not a practice we would ever, ever enter into. We have never done such a thing. That's completely counter to our principles.
4:35 p.m.
President, Global Affairs, Google LLC
I can assure you that if you google Google, you will find a number of articles critical, a number of articles favourable, etc., but whether or not a given article or a publisher takes a position that is pro Google or con Google, that's not going to be a factor that enters into our—
4:35 p.m.
Conservative
Martin Shields Conservative Bow River, AB
It was a Globe and Mail story and it disappeared off your Google search within hours. It's hard to find.
4:35 p.m.
President, Global Affairs, Google LLC
We don't disagree with that. There may well have been changes in the way the website was being coded or picked up. There are a number of technological things that might have happened there. We'd be happy to follow up with your office.
4:35 p.m.
Conservative
Martin Shields Conservative Bow River, AB
I hope you do, because it's frightening to me what you did with that one.
4:35 p.m.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative Kevin Waugh
Thank you, Mr. Shields.
That was actually part of my question, because I saw the story in Monday's Globe and Mail, but I could not download it. The Library of Parliament could not give me the article because it was a competitor of yours stealing the Google search engines. At first you had it up high, and then we couldn't find it, so we had to go to the competitor to find that story. That's where we're coming from.
Thank you, Mr. Shields, for bringing that up.
He's right. When we went to Google to find that story, it wasn't there. It was on the competitor's site, and you had buried it way down. In fact, it never did come up on Google. We can provide that to you, Mr. Walker, and you will enjoy it.
We'll go to Mr. Bittle for five minutes.
4:40 p.m.
Liberal
Chris Bittle Liberal St. Catharines, ON
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
It's disappointing to hear the same talking points that we heard last time. We heard you say you've given Canadian media $250 million in free exposure and you're like a newsstand, but you leave out the part where your newsstand is a monopoly and has a stranglehold over digital revenue. But we'll leave that aside.
Mr. Walker, have you ever heard of the term “astroturfing”?
4:40 p.m.
President, Global Affairs, Google LLC
I have.
To the first part of your question, obviously we believe—
4:40 p.m.
Liberal
Chris Bittle Liberal St. Catharines, ON
No, no. My question was whether you are familiar with the term astroturfing. You said that you are.
4:40 p.m.
Liberal
Chris Bittle Liberal St. Catharines, ON
In a previous answer, you said “consistent with what we've done in Europe” in regard to something else. However, we've seen Google and other platforms engage in questionable lobbying practices here in Canada and internationally.
A leaked company document, entitled DSA 60-day plan update, laid out Google's strategy to weaken support for bills regulating big tech in the European Union. To jog your memory, I believe your CEO apologized to EU commissioners for some of its contents.
The document shows that Google planned to increase pushback on specific EU officials, erode support within the European Commission, use “academic allies” to “raise questions about...new rules” and attempt to seed a trade dispute between the United States and Europe.
Mr. Walker, are these Google's usual practices when it engages with governments on tech regulation?
4:40 p.m.
President, Global Affairs, Google LLC
Our practices are to advocate for access to information and technology regulations that will benefit broad constituencies of users and publishers and advertisers, and to engage constructively with regulators, as we did with the digital services act.
That raised deep social and democratic questions about access to information and social responsibility. Those are not easy questions, and we want to engage with them and bring to bear the full benefits of our experience and sense of what has worked and what hasn't worked.
4:40 p.m.
Liberal
Chris Bittle Liberal St. Catharines, ON
My understanding is that you and Mr. Gingras were in Canada lobbying parliamentarians a few months ago. Is that correct?
4:40 p.m.
President, Global Affairs, Google LLC
Yes. I don't believe we were there at the same time, but over the course of the last few months, I believe we have both been in Ottawa.
4:40 p.m.
Liberal
Chris Bittle Liberal St. Catharines, ON
I did a search in the lobbying registry, unrelated to your site. Are either of you registered to lobby within Canada?
4:40 p.m.
President, Global Affairs, Google LLC
I don't believe that I am.
Richard would have to speak for himself.
4:40 p.m.
Liberal
Chris Bittle Liberal St. Catharines, ON
Okay.
Going back to lobbying practices, last July, EU lawmakers filed complaints against Google and trade groups over shadowy lobbying on EU tech laws. The complaint stated that tech giants like Google used front organizations to advocate for their interests without clear disclosure of their interests. A report shows that 73 European organizations and trade groups that lobbied on EU tech laws had been tied with the tech giants, with Google funding 36 of them. Some of these organizations are named in the European Union complaint on deceitful lobbying.
We know of at least one group here in Canada that was astroturfing, for example, taking money from one of your subsidiary companies.
Can you provide me with a list of the names of entities and individuals you're currently paying directly or in kind to advocate against Canadian legislation?
4:40 p.m.
President, Global Affairs, Google LLC
I want to step back in answering that question. There's been a suggestion in several of the questions that in some ways we are not fully complying with Canadian or European lobbying laws. I believe that we are.
4:40 p.m.
Liberal
Chris Bittle Liberal St. Catharines, ON
That's what I'm trying to find out. We already know of one individual and entity that is engaged in this practice. Can you provide me with a list of the other individuals?
4:40 p.m.
President, Global Affairs, Google LLC
We support a variety of groups and organizations in Canada, North America and Europe, etc., and our various websites provide information about the groups we work with.
4:40 p.m.
Liberal
Chris Bittle Liberal St. Catharines, ON
Mr. Walker, this is specific. We know of at least one individual and organization you provided...to do an astroturfing campaign. We discussed that, and you're familiar with that term. We already know of one. Can you provide me with a list of other individuals and organizations you seeded money to then engage in lobbying against the federal government?
This concerns me with respect to the Lobbying Act and our lobbying legislation. You seemingly have done it in other jurisdictions. I would like a list of the individuals and organizations that you've done this with in Canada.
4:45 p.m.
President, Global Affairs, Google LLC
Your suggestion of what “this” is, I think is an incorrect premise. There's a suggestion that these were astroturfing campaigns. They were not. They were efforts to allow a variety of stakeholders, who had their own concerns about legislation, to have a seat at the table, to have a voice in a parliamentary conversation and—
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
Chris Bittle Liberal St. Catharines, ON
Mr. Walker, if they're not registering with the lobbying commissioner and they're taking money from your organization, that raises some serious concerns. They're not providing that information to us. They're not providing it to regulators.
I think it's fair that this committee have a list. If you're not going to be open and transparent with respect to your lobbying practices.... I think it's fair and reasonable. I've asked the question, and I expect that you provide that information.