Canadian Heritage Committee on May 1st, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you very much.

I would like to ask witnesses, when they are answering questions, to please try not to hit the table as they're emphasizing something. It leads to a banging noise that bothers the interpreters a little bit. Thank you very much.

We'll now go to the New Democratic Party and Mr. Julian.

Peter, you have six minutes, please.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses for their extremely important input.

As everyone knows, national sport organizations are in crisis—Hockey Canada, Soccer Canada and the list goes on.

I have some questions for Ms. Béliveau, Ms. Carpentier and Dr. Demers, and I would appreciate it if they could keep their answers as short as possible.

First, are you in favour of a national public inquiry to take a deep dive into issues affecting safe sport in Canada?

Second, do you think Sport Canada should continue to fund organizations like Hockey Canada even when they don't necessarily meet all of the objectives required to keep the public and athletes safe?

Third, Hockey Canada continues to sign non-disclosure agreements with victims. Do you think that's right, or do you think victims should not be forced to sign such agreements?

[Dr. Guylaine Demers]

I can answer the first question, about a national inquiry.

I definitely think it's necessary to look not just at high-profile sports such as hockey and soccer. We need a very clear understanding of the big picture.

It's also important to make sure that any recommendations that come from the inquiry are implemented. We've seen enough reports wind up on the shelf.

I don't think we are anywhere close to understanding the full extent of the problem. As my colleagues mentioned, it's just the tip of the iceberg. In that context, I think a national inquiry is warranted.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

How do you respond to the other two questions? Where do you stand on the non-disclosure agreements?

[Dr. Guylaine Demers]

I wanted to leave my fellow witnesses time to answer as well.

I definitely see a problem with the non-disclosure agreements. I think victims should be protected first and foremost. I also think they are in the best position to know how they would be affected if the abuse came out or didn't. The requirement to sign non-disclosure agreements raises a lot of red flags for me. It's imperative to keep in mind the potential impact on the victim.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Ms. Béliveau, is there anything else you would like to add?

[Sylvie Béliveau]

I, too, agree that a national public inquiry should be held.

On the second question, which was about funding, I think we need to revisit the funding structure to encourage wellness rather than just performance. I think Ms. Carpentier alluded to that as well.

I hope that answers your question well.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you.

Ms. Carpentier, did you have anything to add?

[Dr. Joëlle Carpentier]

I will join my colleagues in calling for a national public inquiry. With field hockey being our national sport, the Hockey Canada case has received a lot of attention and has stirred up passions. However, the same situation exists in many other federations, which receive less attention because they are sometimes smaller. It is important to understand the whole phenomenon, as the problems are everywhere and are similar in all sports in Canada.

When it comes to funding organizations like Hockey Canada, what is important is to question the goals that are set to receive that funding. Generally speaking, if you don't meet the objectives, the funding should not be given, in my opinion. The reflection really needs to be on the goals that are set, and those goals need to be the scorecard for the health of the organization that is receiving the grant. Health is not just about outcomes; it includes other things as well. There needs to be a much more focused approach to athletes' well-being.

Finally—

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you. I'm sorry to interrupt, but I'd like to hear the responses from the other witnesses as well.

I would like to ask the same questions to Madam Bragagnolo, Ms. Bookal and Mr. McLaren.

Is it appropriate for Sport Canada to restore financing when a national sport organization is not meeting obligations? How do you feel about Hockey Canada's insistence on obliging a victim to sign a non-disclosure agreement? This is something that has been raised continuously as a problem. It's not the victim's choice in this case. Many people in sport believe the victim should have some say in the matter.

I will start with you, Madam Bragagnolo.

[Whitney Bragagnolo]

As I mentioned, some countries already require compliance with good governance standards as a condition for funding. I absolutely think that is something that needs to be considered.

Regarding non-reporting, the research I did with my colleague Yanei Lezama was on sextortion around sport. We asked questions about non-reporting. We wanted to know why people were not reporting.

Just for clarity, sextortion is the abuse of power for sexual benefit. If people abuse their position and ask for money, we look at that as corruption, but if they abuse their position and ask for sex or sexual favours, it's not always recognized as corruption. Charges or sanctions aren't brought forward.

With that known, as I mentioned, fewer than one in five survivors report their incident to a reporting mechanism. We wanted to know why. In terms of the top reasons that survivors did not disclose, 60% said they did not trust that anything would be done by their organization to help them; 59% said they did not trust that their perpetrator would be punished; and 52% said they were concerned that reporting would negatively impact their career. This highlights the overall lack of trust in our sport institutions. That trust must be earned.

Just to follow up on what Ms. Bookal said, at the grassroots level we found that with sextortion specifically, the risk is much higher. In Canada this is a significantly underserved area, as current attention and resources have gone to and are primarily focused on the elite level. For indigenous respondents, community-based sport was the most-reported level for survivor victims, nearly doubling the risk of their white counterparts.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you very much, Ms. Bragagnolo.

Now we go to the second round. This is a five-minute round.

We begin with the Conservatives and Rachael Thomas.

Rachael, you have five minutes. Go ahead, please.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Thank you, Chair, and thank you to the witnesses for taking the time to be here with us today.

My first question is for Mr. McLaren.

You said in your opening remarks, I believe it was, that we should attach funding to accountability. Here in Canada, I believe that's in part what OSIC is supposed to be all about, with regard to national sport organizations receiving funding from Sport Canada. I'm curious as to why this isn't working.

[Richard McLaren]

I think part of the reason it's not working is the limited jurisdiction Sport Canada has. The jurisdiction in sport really lies with the provinces, and the spending power of the federal government is used to influence sport through different programs they have at the top of the system. A national sports body is under the influence of the spending power of the federal government, but many of those organizations don't have much control or, in my experience, even good communication with their provincial counterparts. Even the provincial counterparts don't necessarily connect with the clubs at, let's call it, the grassroots level, so it's very hard, through the funding power of the federal government, which is really their only jurisdiction in this field, to influence what's happening, particularly down at the grassroots level. That's a structural problem we have, which ties into the division of powers between the federal and provincial governments.

I think you can get around that, but you need to develop the relationship, from the grassroots and the club to the provincial sporting organization and then to the national sporting organization, and many of those are very fractious relationships. That's, I think, part of why the system doesn't work.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

I'm just curious, then, as to how that can be better tied together? How do we bring about that greater accountability you're talking about with regard to provincial bodies?

[Richard McLaren]

I think that's very difficult to do within the structure we have. It definitely has to focus on the quality of the people you have at the national board level, and they have to have an understanding that, while they can't demand what the provincial organization or lower down at the grassroots level do, they can attempt to communicate the policies in a way that encourages their implementation at those levels. I think that's one way of curing it. I'm sure there are others.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

This is what I'm curious about, though. The federal minister of sport urged her provincial and territorial counterparts to establish independent mechanisms in this regard, but there doesn't seem to be follow-through or adequate actions being taken. What do you make of that in terms of the changes that are needed there?

[Richard McLaren]

Again I go back to the dysfunction of the whole system. The different provincial bodies don't necessarily co-operate with each other particularly, or have useful interchange. Then the provincial sport organization doesn't implement what is being done in the next province. There's a lack of overall co-operation. With that, how do you achieve accountability with respect to what they're doing? All the federal minister can do is encourage better discussions and more co-operation, but they don't really have an effective tool to go beyond that. The provinces have all of those legislative powers.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Ms. Bragagnolo, I'm curious as to your take.

You've also talked about the need for accountability. We know that Hockey Canada, for example, had its funding suspended and then recently restored. In my estimation and in the estimation of many other critics, there wasn't sufficient evidence to restore that funding.

What type of message does that send, in terms of the establishment of sport culture in a country, when that happens?

[Whitney Bragagnolo]

Again, as I mentioned, I think we're so behind by not having these governance audits across the country. We need, as Mr. McLaren said, appropriate professionals who have the appropriate capacity. Audits will ensure that organizations are capable and doing what they say they are going to do.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you very much.

That's it, Rachael.

We're now going to the Liberals, with Tim Louis.

We have Tim for five minutes, please.

[Tim Louis, Liberal, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

Thank you very much, Chair, and thank you to all of our witnesses for being here for such an important study.

Ms. Bragagnolo, I'd like to start where we left off when I heard you speaking last about the power imbalance. Because of that power imbalance, sexual abuse charges are not being brought forward.

Those are staggering numbers. You said that 60% of people didn't think anything would be done to help them. Again, another 60% of people didn't think anything would happen to the person who was being accused. Can you expand on that and come up with some sort of solution? You didn't have time last time.

[Whitney Bragagnolo]

Yes, I think it emphasizes the importance of independence in our reporting mechanisms. As some of my other colleagues have mentioned, it's the importance of whistle-blowing protection as well.

The leading research in sexual harassment in sport highlights that harassment and abuse appear to be higher at the elite level. When referring to sextortion specifically, our results show that it's happening to the same degree in grassroots sport. This is an area in which we are significantly underserved here in Canada. Our current reporting mechanism is not able and does not have the capacity to help this group of people. The resources are completely in another direction.

For BIPOC respondents specifically, they were two times more concerned about career repercussions if they reported, so they did not report. Eighty-one per cent of our BIPOC respondents listed it as their number one reason for not reporting. That's compared to 34% of those who identified as white. Not only are we not seeing a lot of trust in our system, but we're also seeing that the most vulnerable people in our community are suffering immensely.

Again, independence is of crucial importance here.

[Tim Louis, Liberal, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

Would you be able to submit some of those studies here for our report? That would be very helpful.

[Whitney Bragagnolo]

Yes.