Canadian Heritage Committee on May 1st, 2023

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you, Mr. Shields.

I now go to Mr. Housefather for the Liberals.

Anthony, you have two minutes, please.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair. Excuse me for one second. I apologize. I didn't think you were getting to me.

My question is for Mr. McLaren.

Mr. McLaren, you did your very good report on the Bob Birarda case at Canada Soccer. I have a question for you. We have Charmaine Crooks, the president of Canada Soccer, coming to us on Thursday. What are the questions you would like to ask Ms. Crooks about the way Canada Soccer handled the Birarda case?

[Richard McLaren]

Well, of course, she wasn't involved in that at all. She wasn't part of the executive board or any of those decisions, because that was 2008 and her role is much more recent than that, but I think the questions are these.

Why was it necessary to have this “negotiated exit”, as I described it in my remarks, which allows somebody to leave an organization and for which the real reasons are not revealed and never enter the public domain?

Then, why did they fail to keep records? There was no investigation report. There were no board minutes. There was no transparency in the governance process.

Also, what have you done now to change how those things would be handled were you required to do some other investigation in 2023?

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Mr. McLaren, she was part of the board more recently, when your report was done. She has been part of the board for the last many years. It took until after your report and Mr. Birarda being convicted for the board to make any announcement about Mr. Birarda being suspended from soccer. Do you believe that Canada Soccer is now being more diligent, based on all of the facts you've seen?

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Please give us a very concise reply, Mr. McLaren.

[Richard McLaren]

I think they need to be more open and forthright in their replies, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you very much, and thank you, Anthony.

I will go very quickly to Sébastien Lemire.

Sébastien, you have two minutes.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mr. McLaren, by naming the whistleblowers, your report will also have directed attention to the victims. Now, the experts have spoken about the importance of preserving the anonymity of victims, given the trauma that can be caused to them. They also talked about the importance of treating victims fairly and offering them certain services.

Given the advice of these experts, do you have any regrets about confidentiality?

What recommendations would you make to preserve the anonymity of victims and protect them, while ensuring that you get their testimony and participation in the various reporting or investigative processes to shed light on the events?

[Richard McLaren]

If you think I suggested that it wasn't important, either I misspoke or you misunderstood, because I think confidentiality's extremely important.

In fact, the only way you can really work with a whistle-blower is if they have sufficient trust that confidentiality will be maintained, because their biggest fear is retaliation, either by other athletes or by other coaches or members of the sport. I think that fundamental to whistle-blowing is the need for confidentiality and protection. When you conduct an investigation—

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

You have 30 seconds.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Actually, Ms. Bragagnolo seems to want to respond as well, so I would like to give her the last 30 seconds.

[Whitney Bragagnolo]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I think it's important that we have, as I mentioned, certified registered mental health professionals involved.

As well, I think the number of sports lawyers in the Canadian system is overlooked. I would argue that human rights lawyers would be better equipped to handle abuse cases, due to their specialized knowledge in areas such as gender-based violence, discrimination and human rights violations.

Additionally, they may approach cases from a broader perspective that takes into account gender mainstreaming and intersectionality and also looks at the root causes—

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Meegwetch, thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

We have a vote call.

I'm sorry, but we really need to let Peter Julian have his two minutes.

Thank you very much. I'm so sorry to cut you guys off.

Peter, go ahead for two minutes.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mr. McLaren, you probably saw the testimony by Steven Reed a few days ago at committee. I was shocked—I think all members of the committee were shocked—to hear that he felt completely powerless to stop, in any way, a convicted sexual offender, Bob Birarda, from accessing more victims.

Do you believe that is true, that people in positions of responsibility are powerless to stop these perpetrators, these offenders, from accessing victims? What would you suggest that we might ask Canada Soccer president Charmaine Crooks, when she comes, as she has been summoned to, this Thursday?

[Richard McLaren]

I'm sorry, but I did not see Mr. Reed's testimony in front of the committee, so I don't really have a comment on that.

I think it's not the case that you're powerless to do anything. For example, a coach has to have a coaching licence and report to the coaching association as to what's gone on, but then you can't have a negative explanation for why the termination has occurred, so they don't make those reports. That then allows the perpetrator to hide behind a “personal reasons” exit and allows the sport body to really justify in its own mind that it has no basis on which to take any further action. There is a basis on which it can take further action. It would be by way of reporting to other organizations and influencing whether or not the person could continue to coach, for example, in the illustration you're using.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

What would you ask Charmaine Crooks on Thursday? What would you suggest we ask her about?

[Richard McLaren]

I'm sorry, but I don't know what I could add quickly to what's already been discussed there.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you very much.

The time is up, Peter, because the members have to vote.

I want to thank the witnesses for coming and being able to answer some complex questions. Thank you very much on behalf of the committee.

This meeting is now adjourned. Thank you.