Canadian Heritage Committee on May 1st, 2023

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Chair, if I may, what I might suggest, then, is that for the next meeting on Thursday, given Mr. Housefather's motion, that is a minimum of two hours. That would take up the entire duration of Thursday's meeting. We'll respect that and hold that meeting for Charmaine Crooks. What I would ask is that perhaps we could have 30 minutes of committee business at the end of Monday's meeting, on May 8.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

I think that on May 8 we have asked Meta to come. That may be a two-hour meeting as well.

That's what the clerk was mentioning earlier on: if we could get an extra half an hour. He has submitted the request for that, and we will hear if on Thursday we can have an extra half an hour in our meeting. I know that everyone travels on a Thursday and that it's kind of a bad time to add half an hour, but I don't know.... Unless I hear anyone vociferously deciding that they don't want us to try for Thursday for an extra half an hour, then we can move on and suggest that we do this on Thursday.

Go ahead, Peter.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Madam Chair, I think Ms. Thomas's suggestion is a good one if we can do that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Marilyn is next.

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

The committee agreed that we weren't going to extend hours on Thursday, because people have flights. I think the Monday recommendation is the best, and I would support it. If we can get extra time, great, and if not, we can take the last 15 minutes of that meeting to do committee business.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

All right. That's where we're going to go.

Clerk, we can try to do this on Monday for an extra 15 minutes at the end of the meeting.

Thank you very much.

Obviously, we're going to postpone this to Monday, May 8, to discuss in a small business meeting of 15 minutes to get some things done. Hearing no one objecting to that, I would like to let the clerk know that I think we're going to look at having some time to do that on Monday.

Thank you very much.

Now I want to move to the witnesses.

Witnesses, you have five minutes each. I will shout out—literally—30 seconds before the end of your time so you can wrap up. I know that saying “30 seconds” tends to butt in, but I've found in the past that people don't look up when they're reading, and they don't see me frantically waving that they have 30 seconds left. I will just shout out “30 seconds”, and you can wrap up. You will have time during the question and answer section to elaborate on something that you did not get to finish in your five-minute presentation.

Without further ado, we will begin with Shauna Bookal.

You have five minutes, please, Ms. Bookal.

[Shauna Bookal, Manager, Equity, Diversity, Inclusion and Student Experience, Ontario University Athletics, As an Individual]

Thank you, Madam Chair, for this opportunity to speak in front of the standing committee.

I am not an Olympian. I am not a national team coach. I am not a researcher or scholar. I'm coming to you as a first-generation, proud Jamaican Canadian who grew up in Scarborough, Ontario, with a background in amateur sport spanning over 30 years. My experience and the thoughts I'm going to share with you come from a different lens. I'm a former grassroots athlete and coach turned amateur-sport administrator and educator.

Growing up in the sport system in the 1990s, I was identified as an emerging Black leader and was able to take NCCP and leaders-in-training programs at no cost. I went on to complete three degrees in sport management and have been involved in almost every major sporting event that has come to Toronto since 2012. I was also the executive director of a provincial sport organization. I was the only Black female across the country to hold this position for two years.

Sometime in the early 2000s, the sport system started to change. It went from a “sport for all” emphasis to a high-performance focus. The emerging leader programs for minorities started to disappear. The emphasis on mandatory training started to become optional. Less focus was given to amateur sport, and more emphasis was placed on national team athletes and podium finishes. Twenty years later, here we are asking, “What went wrong?” and “Where do we go from here?”

When looking at safe sport...the first place everyone looks is the coaching. Back in the day, I remember watching my dad, who was a volunteer coach, and my mom, a volunteer team manager, go through mandatory training. Part of that included the mandatory background check every year and staying current in their NCCP training. Courses back then were also affordable, and police background checks were free. Coaches would pay, then get a refund.

Nowadays, some coaches, particularly minorities, do not have NCCP certification, due to the high costs associated with the courses. For example, a volunteer coach could potentially pay anywhere between $250 and $4,000 to coach, depending on the level and age of their team. This will unfortunately lead to a lot of coaches with incomplete training, or good coaches not even getting a chance to coach at all, because they are unable to complete the training required for them to be a coach in amateur sports.

The Coaches Association of Ontario and the Coaching Association of Canada used to be very involved in attending community events to help educate the community on all the different programs they had to offer. Nowadays, grassroots organizations do not know the CAO or CAC exist, because information does not flow top-down. Some sport organizations do a great job communicating to the community, while others do not.

When people ask, “Where do we start for safe sport?”, in my opinion, True Sport and the Responsible Coaching Movement need to be mandatory in amateur sport, much like the High Five program is mandatory in recreational sport, especially for grassroots levels. Currently, in Ontario, when you walk into a municipal recreation facility, there is a High Five poster, banner or certification hanging there. If anybody wants to work with youth, they have to have High Five certification, and this is non-negotiable. Why isn't the same standard held for True Sport and RCM?

We also need to make the effective governance training offered by the Canadian Centre for Ethics in Sports mandatory, since, in my experience, board members in amateur sport do not know the difference between a governing board and a working board. CCES offers many programs, but very few people know about them, because, just like me, many assume CCES works only in the area of anti-doping.

In 2020, the murder of George Floyd was a wake-up call on racism across many sectors. Countries like Australia, New Zealand, the United Kingdom and the United States responded by creating an equity, diversity and inclusion sport strategy that included safe sport. Three years later, I am still waiting to see a central national EDI sport strategy here in Canada.

For the past eight months, I have been working as the manager of EDI and student experience for Ontario University Athletics, where my main portfolio's focus is on EDI, women in sport and safe sport. My position was made possible by the “Making Progress Together” report, which describes how the OUA is advancing towards a safe, equitable and diverse culture. I have shared the report for your review.

Over the past eight months we've developed an anti-racism awareness week, revised our safe sport policy and started executing the “women in sport” plan. From June 23 to 25 of this year, thanks to the support of the Ontario MTCS, the OUA will be hosting a “diversity in sports” conference with a focus on the amateur sport sector. Emerging BIPOC leaders will have the opportunity to receive free NCCP training through this conference as well.

All of my friends and family know how much I love quotes, so I would be remiss if I didn't take this opportunity to leave you with one: “Just because the past didn't turn out like you wanted it to, doesn't mean the future can't be better than you ever imagined.”

Thank you for granting me the opportunity to share my experiences and thoughts with you today.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you very much, Ms. Bookal. I didn't have to stop you at all, so that's cool.

Next is Ms. Bragagnolo, who is in sport governance and anti-corruption.

[Whitney Bragagnolo, Ph.D. Candidate, Sport Governance and Anti-Corruption Consultant, As an Individual]

Madam Chair and members of the committee, I express my gratitude for this invitation, for the commitment to addressing these critical concerns, and for your attention to the ethical evolution of Canadian sport.

I'm here independently. What I mean by that is I do not work for, consult with or get paid by any Canadian sport entity. I'm not affiliated with any Canadian academic institution or organization. I left Canada in 2016, and I reside in The Hague. This is of relevance. There are instances when increased objective scrutiny is necessary. Impartial viewpoints mitigate risks of undue influence and promote fact-based decision-making, free from conflict of interest. Independence helps ensure that opinions are unbiased, fair and just.

I come from the field of risk, investigations and sport integrity. I hold a master's degree in sport ethics and integrity, and I am a Ph.D. researcher in sport governance and anti-corruption.

Many have requested this inquiry—myself included. While some individuals may have valid reasons for opposing, it must also be understood that the existence of conflict of interest may be a reason some actors are in opposition, as certain findings might directly or indirectly impact them.

Moving forward, a lack of integrity and professional capacity may cause sport entities and individuals to reject interference from government or judicial authorities by appealing to sport's autonomy. The autonomy of sport, in many cases, can shield leadership from moral, social and judicial scrutiny, resulting in institutions that are not accountable to anyone.

Madam Chair, a fully independent inquiry is necessary. The government's failure to hold sport entities accountable to higher standards of governance has resulted in significant harm. This is despite numerous instances of the lack of capacity of these sport entities to evolve. The government has a responsibility to ensure public health and safe sport.

I offer three solutions to promote the ethical evolution of Canadian sport, where the integrity of sport governance is a vital pillar.

One, commence independent sport governance audits in the inquiry. Existing sport governance frameworks with global recognition and established history can be used to measure and define future requirements, setting the Canadian standard for expected practice. Accessible, transparent audits hold organizations accountable, measuring their capacity for ethical growth and advancement in the intended direction.

Two, incorporate anonymous athlete and employee feedback in all governance audits. Despite being long-ignored, athletes provide critical insight into vulnerabilities, risks and opportunity. Even if things look perfect on paper, anonymous feedback helps ensure that policy, procedures and people are fit for purpose.

Three, establish conceptual clarity on what independence actually means. Entities around safe sport require independence to be effective. For any entity, here are some things to consider. Is a sport organization funding the entity? Is a sport organization funding an entity involved in any ongoing cases? Does the entity have any obligation to disclose information to a sport organization? Does anyone within the entity have a personal connection? Does anyone within the entity have any history enabling abuse or corruption in sport at any level?

Non-disclosure of negative findings hinders the integrity of investigations, accountability and ethical growth. Independence is essential to prevent conflict of interest and enabling behaviour. Not one current sport entity in Canada can be tasked to oversee this inquiry. It must be outside sport.

I'll close with a research finding from me and colleague Yanei Lezama. Fewer than one in five survivors disclose their incident to a reporting mechanism. Ask me why. This helps conceptualize the institutional enablers that exist in our sport systems. It is poor governance that facilitates the continuation of the abuse of power. This underscores why independence is so important and how even seemingly functioning systems can be insufficient.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you very much.

Now I go to the next witness, Dr. Joëlle Carpentier.

Ms. Carpentier, you have five minutes, please.

[Dr. Joëlle Carpentier, Professor, School of Management, Université du Québec à Montréal, As an Individual]

Good morning.

I would like to thank the committee for inviting me to share my experience, expertise and views on high-performance sport, generally, and the situation in Canada, specifically.

I'm a professor at the department of human resource management in the school of management at the Université du Québec à Montréal. I have a Ph.D. in social psychology, with a specialty in sport psychology. My research focuses on the coach-athlete relationship and the behaviours coaches must demonstrate to foster both athletic performance and the well-being of athletes.

I, myself, am a former national athlete and coach. I am still active in the world of high-performance sport, working as a performance psychology consultant, giving talks and training to coaches and sport organizations, serving as an official at the national level, and sitting on the board of a provincial federation.

The main thing I want to bring to the committee's attention today is the scientific research into how the social environment affects athletes' development. The science is clear: environments where the emphasis is strictly on performance are harmful to human beings. What's more, generally speaking, those environments lead to the worst outcomes in the long run. Individuals in those settings are willing to do anything for immediate results, even when their actions or decisions could be damaging to themselves, others or their organization.

The Canadian sport system, particularly its funding structure, is based primarily on the rapid achievement of results. When funding hinges on short-term performance and success, federations demand immediate results in order to keep their funding and ultimately ensure their survival. Consequently, they tolerate unacceptable behaviour on the part of certain coaches, administrators and athletes for the sake of short-term results. Under that type of system, it's always the same federations, the same sports, the same coaches and the same practices that benefit from funding, at the expense of innovation, modernization, diversity and well-being.

Tolerating—if not implicitly promoting—these kinds of destructive behaviours creates a sport culture where they are the norm. It is time to really educate all those involved in the Canadian sport system on what is acceptable behaviour and, conversely, what should be considered unacceptable in sport. For far too long, this results-driven system has allowed unacceptable behaviour to go unchecked in the name of athletic performance, so much so that the behaviour is now widely considered acceptable, even desirable.

In recent months, numerous coaches have been singled out, and rightfully so, for their inappropriate behaviour towards athletes. It is necessary, however, to examine how the current sport system influences and even encourages that behaviour. When a system prioritizes results—or worse, the rapid achievement of results—it puts pressure on coaches, who then transfer that pressure onto athletes.

Accordingly, it is time to not only point fingers at coaches, but also give them training, guidance and support. They need to education on what the building blocks of a healthy coach-athlete relationship are, on which behaviours to adopt and which ones to avoid in order to foster that healthy relationship, on issues affecting athletes' mental health and the list goes on. It is time to give them the right framework and to provide them with resources they can turn to when in doubt, resources that are co‑developed, resources that support their own mental health. Giving coaches a framework and taking care of their needs will help bring about culture change and improve their ability to cope with the pressure on their shoulders.

In conclusion, a number of actions are necessary to create the conditions for healthy and safe sport in Canada. They include reviewing the funding system, educating the public and members of the sport community to change the norm and culture, training coaches and giving them resources, adopting an approach that puts the well-being of athletes and coaches first, listening to athletes, and empowering them to create their own optimal training conditions. The current funding model produces medals in the short term, but at a cost: athletes' long-term mental and physical health. The research shows that similar results can be obtained and just as many medals can be won without sacrificing athletes' health. The science tells us that building a healthy sport environment, one driven by the well-being of athletes rather than athletic performance, produces equally good—and in the long term, better—results. It's time to stop following our old instincts and doing things the traditional way. Instead, we need to embrace science and apply the knowledge we have.

We must resist the temptation to focus on what we can readily see—like performance—and start focusing on what we can't. We can achieve the same results when we make that switch. It's time to ask federations to bring visibility to factors that have generally been overlooked: athletes' well-being, the purpose behind involvement in sport, skill development and so forth. It's time to focus on the long-term development of athletes and to give sport stakeholders the time and space they need to do things right. Bear in mind that results are nothing more than a consequence of doing things well. They should never be the end goal.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you, Dr. Carpentier.

Now we go to Mr. McLaren for five minutes.

Mr. McLaren, go ahead.

[Richard McLaren, Chief Executive Officer, McLaren Global Sport Solutions Inc., As an Individual]

Madam Chair and members of the committee, thank you for giving me the opportunity to share my observations pertaining to the critical issue of safe sport in Canada.

McLaren Global Sport Solutions, or MGSS as it is known, focuses on investigations and governance reviews of organizations in Canada and globally. Our work relates to a variety of integrity issues, including safe sport, the use of performance-enhancing drugs, competition manipulation, fraud, other forms of corruption and the overarching governance integrity issues arising therefrom.

I hold appointments as the independent integrity officer for the International Basketball Federation, FIBA, and the International Boxing Association, IBA, and as the chief anti-corruption officer for professional tennis worldwide. I also am the independent third party for Table Tennis Canada.

Over my career I have led complex investigations involving corruption in international boxing, weightlifting, and many other sports, including investigations for the World Anti-Doping Agency, which revealed state-sponsored doping of athletes by Russia at the Sochi Olympics and in a number of Russian sports, particularly athletics.

One recent example of my international work in safe sport involved a complex investigation of sexual allegations against basketball and state officials in Mali, following reports by Human Rights Watch that were published in the New York Times. My team conducted a comprehensive independent investigation focused on the systemic sexual abuse of young female basketball players. That report and all our other reports are public and are published on my company's website.

My international experience is important to share with you because, unfortunately, safe sport is an international issue, not simply a Canadian one. Consider, for example, that in the sport of gymnastics there have been no fewer than six major national reviews into the sport, including those in the United Kingdom, Australia, New Zealand, Switzerland, the Netherlands and, of course, the United States, with which most members of the committee, I'm sure, are familiar.

Let me turn to two examples of recent work in Canada by MGSS, namely our 2022 independent review of Canada Soccer, and our 2023 report on Gymnastics Canada. We also did a report in 2021 on how to establish a national independent safe sport agency in Canada.

With Canada Soccer we were tasked to review the institutional response to harassment allegations made in 2008 against former U-20 women's national team coach Bob Birarda. The members of this committee are familiar with this saga through the courageous testimony of Andrea Neil and others. We found that Canada Soccer had fairly robust policies and investigation procedures at the time. However, there was little attention paid to safe sport amongst the executive ranks and the CSA, which did not follow its own written policies.

The joint investigation of Birarda conducted in 2008 by Canada Soccer and Major League Soccer's Vancouver Whitecaps was severely flawed. For example, no written report was issued by the investigator and no minutes were created of any of the processes or decisions made by the CSA's board of directors. There was no transparency, a flaw we have found repeatedly in sport. Reasonable policies are not enforced.

On the recommendation of the investigator, the CSA executive committee voted to terminate Birarda in October 2008. However, rather than terminating him, there was a negotiated exit. Birarda was allowed to submit a resignation, which was characterized by the CSA as a mutual parting of ways. The real reasons for his sudden departure were couched as being personal in a press conference at which some of the female complainants were present and definitely knew otherwise. Exiting “for personal reasons” is a frequently used euphemism to hide improper conduct and to avoid follow-up actions.

Such an approach, regrettably, is common in sport. The record and the real reasons for termination are hidden, thanks to the negotiated exit by resignation. It also allows the perpetrator to inflict abuse in future positions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Can you wrap up, please, Mr. McLaren?

[Richard McLaren]

Yes, I can. Let me just go to my summary.

My observations are that sports organizations generally have reasonable policies and other tools to use in abuse and safe sport matters. However, the policies typically are not enforced. There is also limited accountability and a lack of courage to publicly state reasons for an individual's exit. Negotiated exits are the easy way out. They keep the dirty laundry hidden but have harmful ripple affects.

Athletes and parents, who know the truth, do not trust sports administrators. They fear retaliation and have little or no protection if they become a whistle-blower.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you, Mr. McLaren. You can elaborate during the question and answer period on some of the things you wanted to say.

I will now go to Ms. Béliveau, director of gender equity at Égale Action, for five minutes, please.

[Sylvie Béliveau, Director, Gender Equity, Égale Action]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I want to thank you for the opportunity to appear before the committee. I have been Égale Action's director of gender equity for a year now.

I'd like to start by mentioning that Égale Action has been around for more 20 years. We work to ensure equity and equality for women and girls within Quebec's sport system and to help them develop their full potential.

When it comes to safe sport in Canada, the first thing I would say is that victim protection must continue to be the priority, and rightfully so. That means maintaining and strengthening mechanisms such as support hotlines and the Sport Dispute Resolution Centre of Canada. Also needed are better tools to prevent abuse and violence of any kind in sport, at all levels and in all forms of participation.

The second thing I would say is that sport organizations have to put measures in place. That's what we, at Égale Action, focus on. I have no doubt that all of us would welcome a decreased demand for telephone hotlines. That means doing the groundwork to change the unsafe culture. That work involves raising awareness, examining the individual sport communities by building organizational profiles, and introducing strategies that will lead to meaningful actions and the desired results.

The organization officials who reach out to us have good intentions but sometimes lack resources. They need guidance and jointly developed solutions. That's why organizations like Quebec's Égale Action are needed. They are neutral parties that provide support and guidance to sport federations and organizations.

Now I'd like to share some helpful measures. Much of the support we provide is in the form of mentorship. That includes not just support for issues analysis and strategy and plan deployment, but also the delivery of training workshops to foster greater awareness of the corporate culture and biases.

Of course, it's not all about a single member of an organization and their desire to take action. One of the barriers we run into involves an organization's capacity and resources, not to mention the time it invests in bringing about change. Keep in mind it still has to focus on day-to-day concerns and responsibilities.

We also believe that it's important to continue supporting and empowering women to increase their presence in sport organizations. In Quebec, women make up 33% of board members. Hopefully, that is thanks to the efforts made in recent years, and we want to see that progress continue. However, women account for a mere 19% of coaches in Quebec. Coaches are, after all, the people in a position of immediate authority in athletes' lives. Despite the introduction of programs to support coaches, the proportion of women coaches has not changed.

The services we provide to support and assist women are aimed at increasing the presence of women in sport, of course, but above all, at making sure their voices are heard. Establishing communities of practice is one way we hope to help women move past the doubt and gain the confidence they need to join organizations and assert their place in the sport system.

Finally, a range of policies are necessary to bring about lasting change. Putting an assessment mechanism in place is imperative in order to measure the actions and progress that will lead to culture change. It will then be possible to build a framework and parameters for organizations, and to steer them in a different direction as needed. This will ensure that they are accountable to their members and political institutions, and provide an accurate picture of their progress.

In Quebec, a recently created research lab is now part of the support ecosystem, Lab PROFEMS, and we are fortunate to have the director with us today.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you very much, Ms. Béliveau.

I'll now go to Dr. Demers for five minutes, please.

[Dr. Guylaine Demers, Professor and Director, Laboratoire de recherche pour la progression des femmes dans les sports au Québec]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you for inviting me. This is my third appearance before a parliamentary committee. I appreciate the opportunity to contribute to the process aimed at improving the sport system.

As Ms. Béliveau mentioned, I'm here in my capacity as director of Laboratoire de recherche pour la progression des femmes dans les sports au Québec, a new research lab focused on advancing women in sport in Quebec. Accordingly, my remarks will focus on the importance of research, which can help bring more equality and equity to the sport system, and above all, make it safer for everyone.

I want to draw something to the committee's attention. Canada was fortunate to have the first gender equity in sport research hub from 2020 to 2022, but unfortunately, it received only two years' worth of funding. I had the pleasure of co-directing the hub with Gretchen Kerr, whom you've no doubt heard from on the issue of safe sport. It's really a shame that the research hub was funded for such a short time. We had started building the mechanisms to support the sport system and help you, as politicians, make informed, evidenced-based decisions.

Research should be the cornerstone of any initiative. Whenever a measure is introduced, or a mechanism or solution deployed, the ability to carry out an evaluation and determine the impact is key.

Ms. Bookal, the first witness you heard from today, shared a quote with the committee. I, too, have a quote for you. It comes from an eminent researcher by the name of Einstein. He said that the definition of insanity was doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. I think that's often been the case in Canada. People think they have good ideas, so they implement them. My first message to the committee is this: go by the research. When you introduce a measure, you have to be able to evaluate it.

My colleague Ms. Carpentier talked about what we've learned from the research. It's been shown that, when more women are in leadership positions, violence and harassment rates drop rapidly, not only in sport, but also in a number of areas. That is true of the workplace, the prison system and elsewhere in Canada. In fact, the increased number of female prison guards has almost led to the elimination of physical violence in federal prisons.

The literature shows that the more women there are in a given setting, the better the conditions in that setting. Ms. Béliveau mentioned the percentage of women coaches in Canada. It's a similar situation globally. Athletes are trained predominantly by men, who account for nearly 80% of coaches, more in some sports.

I cannot stress enough that, first and foremost, research is key.

Second, we need to pay close attention to accountability. Some of my fellow witnesses spoke about that. Funding has to be tied to accountability. That requires an organization to support data collection. Again, this ties in with research. If the government decided to invest anew in the Gender Equity in Sport Research Hub, as I hope it will, the hub could oversee that accountability, as an impartial and independent organization, helping to inform funding policies and decisions.

I quite appreciated what my colleague Ms. Carpentier said. As she pointed out, when funding is tied solely to performance and when the winning of medals is all that matters, athletes will continue to experience abuse. Make no mistake.

The last point I want to make was also raised by Ms. Béliveau.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

You have 20 seconds.

[Dr. Guylaine Demers]

Victims should absolutely be at the heart of all decision-making. Keep in mind that many people put their hearts and souls into the sport system, from administrators to those in other roles, and those people need support to implement a safe sport system.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you very much, Dr. Demers.

Now we're going to the question and answer component of the meeting. The first round is a six-minute round. We will begin with the Conservative Party, with Marilyn Gladu.

Ms. Gladu, you have the floor for six minutes, please.

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Thank you, Chair, and thank you to all of the witnesses for your appearance today.

I'm going to start with Mr. McLaren. You have a lot of experience, looking into organizations of sport both within Canada and internationally, so could you talk about common themes that you see between sports organizations that need to be addressed and key recommendations that you would have for the federal government to act on?

[Richard McLaren]

I agree with the last speaker's point. Accountability is a significant problem. Many sports have reasonably robust policies, but they don't use them. They remain unenforced. I have seen that repeatedly in work I have done in Canada and overseas. Accountability is a major problem.

Another problem, which nobody has mentioned this morning, is whistle-blowing. In order to conduct many investigations, as I've done, you need to have whistle-blowers, and whistle-blowers have big issues about retaliation in many different forms. This country has, in both the corporate world and also in the sports world, very limited whistle-blower protection legislation of any kind. We're way behind Europe and other countries in the world in that area, so that is an important area to look at as well, and it ties back to accountability.

Another thing I was speaking about in my remarks is the exit negotiation excuse called “personal reasons” for somebody who has really committed improper conduct. Hiding the real reasons inhibits people who perhaps want to have this person do something in the future, because they don't ever find public information about the real reasons for departure. The worst part of that negotiated exit is the ability of the individual to go to a different sport or a different country—but particularly a different sport—and carry on the same abuse that has already been identified in other situations.

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Thank you, Mr. McLaren. Yes, we heard good testimony about whistle-blower protection against retaliation, as well as interesting testimony about the use of NDAs to silence victims and allow perpetrators to continue.

You talked about accountability, especially with respect to funding. I thought that was what OSEC was supposed to, and that it was put in place to make sure there was accountability. Is it not working? What would your opinion be there?