Canadian Heritage Committee on May 8th, 2023

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

I believe that was debate.

Policy passed at the convention often makes it to the floor of the House of Commons, and then, of course, it impacts Canadians. That is concerning. It's concerning to Paul Wells and to other journalists because it would be an infringement on their ability to function as journalists.

Ms. Hepfner often talks about the fact that they're so incredibly well trained and should be trusted to tell the stories they research, so I'm confused as to why this government wouldn't trust them to tell those stories without first needing to give a state stamp of approval as to their sources.

Nevertheless, this government has managed to turn into a bully, because they own part of the media. In the same way, Facebook, or Meta, is being put in a position where it will have to enter into monetary contracts with news sources, which then gives Facebook, or Meta, an incredible amount of power as well. It would appear, then, that they are also using that power to make decisions that have a detrimental impact on Canadians.

I actually see two peas in a pod. I see two sources of tremendous power dictating to Canadians what's going to happen in terms of access to news.

I'm curious as to what you would make of that.

[Rachel Curran, Head of Public Policy, Canada, Meta Platforms Inc.]

Thank you for the question, Mrs. Thomas.

Part of our concern with the online news act, with Bill C-18, is the fact that it ties the fate and the fortunes of the Canadian news sector to the fortunes of two American technology companies. We think that one of the major flaws with the legislation, as you've stated, is in fact that it makes the news sector almost entirely dependent on foreign technology companies. That is one of the points of concern we have with this piece of legislation.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

I guess I need some further help, though, to know why it is in the hands of these two giants.

[Rachel Curran]

Thank you for the question, Mrs. Thomas.

That is the way the legislation is drafted. That's certainly what the minister has indicated also. It's that this legislation is intended to apply to two American technologies companies, which are Google and Meta. I understand there may be some room to scope in other platforms or other technology companies, but for now, very clearly it's directed at Google and at Meta.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

It's my understanding that you've entered into several agreements already. Does Meta intend to uphold those agreements or pull from them?

[Kevin Chan]

Well, Madam, I don't know that we have an answer for that. Of course, it depends on what the framework for Bill C-18 will ultimately be. We have to understand what is scoped in with Bill C-18 to understand what can and cannot be ultimately on the platform from a news content point of view.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

I'm curious. For Facebook to continue to carry news and to continue forward with these deals that have been sprung—I think it's 14, or something like that—I'm wondering what is required in terms of legislative change. Right now, Bill C-18 is in the Senate, so it's possible to have amendments made. What should those amendments be?

[Rachel Curran]

Thank you, Mrs. Thomas.

We have proposed a list of amendments, both to this committee and to the Senate.

I'm sorry. Madam Chair...?

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

You speak through the chair. Thank you.

[Rachel Curran]

Oh, I'm sorry, Madam Chair.

Yes, we have proposed a list of amendments to this committee and to the Senate committee looking at the bill. One of our primary concerns with the bill in the amendments we have proposed is to scope out what we call publisher-posted content, which is content that's posted voluntarily by news publishers to our platforms, whether it's written text, hyperlinks or audiovisual content. If publisher-posted content were removed from the scope of the act, we think it would make it a much better piece of legislation. That is one of the primary amendments we propose.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you.

Now we go to the Liberals and Anthony Housefather, please.

Anthony, you have six minutes.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

[Technical difficulty—Editor]

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

I'm sorry, Anthony, but you're on mute, I think. We can't hear you. At least, I can't hear you.

Could we suspend the time for Mr. Housefather while we find out what's going on?

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

I'm very confused, Madam Chair. Can you hear me?

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Now we can hear you, yes.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Okay, I'm sorry. I don't know what happened. I apologize to the witnesses.

Witnesses, I'm going to be asking a couple of questions that can be answered by “yes” or “no”, or “I don't know”. Feel free to say “yes”, “no”, “I don't know.” If I ask you to expand, feel free to expand.

My first question is for Mr. Chan. Did you encourage Mr. Clegg not to come here today?

[Kevin Chan]

I believe this was his decision.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Did you have any role in that?

[Kevin Chan]

Well, I'm an adviser to our president, so of course I would be part of that decision.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Did you agree with that? Did the advice that you gave correspond to his decision?

[Kevin Chan]

As all good advisers will do with a former deputy prime minister, you'll appreciate that we will keep my advice confidential so that I may be fearless in my advice, and he is the decider.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Has Meta's board of directors discussed the content-blocking decision you've made in the event that Bill C-18 is adopted?

[Kevin Chan]

I'm sorry, but I didn't hear that. Could you repeat it?

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Has Meta's board of directors discussed the proposed content-blocking in Canada if Bill C-18 is adopted?

I can't hear your answer, Mr. Chan.

[Kevin Chan]

Oh, I said, “I don't know.”