Canadian Heritage Committee on May 8th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

We just finished that.

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

That's fine, then. That would be fine too.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

All right, that's fine. Okay, I'll begin, then.

I'll go to Mr. Waugh for three minutes.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

There's lots of talk about disinformation in Canada. We just saw it. The Liberal convention brought it out. There is disinformation. Shame on news sources in this country, whether it's Meta or Google or CTV or Global or even the prize, the CBC.

I see that people always seem to be hacked on Meta Platforms. How does one hack? Every day I see friends who are hacked.

[Kevin Chan]

Well, sir, it would depend on a bunch of different things. One way that it happens oftentimes is that when someone is sent a malicious email, they click on it, and that reveals certain information on their computer to the person who is trying to hack. They are then able to take control of certain accounts or the computer in question.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

With this talked-about new policy at the Liberal convention about misinformation, it says there will be money available, public funds to support this.

Would Meta be at the table for money from the Liberal Party if this policy becomes law through the Liberal government?

[Rachel Curran]

Thank you, Mr. Waugh.

Certainly if there are government funds on offer to Meta, we would apply for those, absolutely.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

This was the issue I had with this proposal that came up on the weekend. It's the most ridiculous thing. We have all seen misinformation, and not only on social media. I was a broadcaster on for over 40 years. There was misinformation during my time that was spread on local news. I saw it. You just shake your head. You go back in time....

Ms. Curran, I think you want to answer some of this.

[Rachel Curran]

Yes. Well, I think that's true, Mr. Waugh, through the chair.

If I could, I'd just respond to this question about the value of news, though, which I know you raised also.

I think that when we're talking about value, we believe that news has a real social value. The problem is that it doesn't have much of an economic value to Meta. That's the real concern with this legislation. We are being asked to compensate news publishers for material that has no economic value to us, and that's where the problem is.

We agree, though, that news has a real social value and that it's entirely appropriate for legislators and policy-makers like yourself, particularly if you've been involved in the industry, to think about how to support the news industry as it transitions into the digital world.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

It hasn't done a very good job of transitioning. I mean, it has just been brutal with the newspapers. With the firewalls, the attempts they have, it has been disastrous from day one.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you.

We now go to the Liberals and Anthony Housefather for three minutes, please.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I want to come back to the issue of Australia. Again, I'm concerned about the overreach in the content blocking that happened in Australia and making sure that this does not happen here.

Whistle-blower documents state that Facebook violated its own company policies during the gradual rollout of the takedown on February 17, 2021. Facebook ignored error signals at the 10% mark, 25% mark, 50% mark, as senior executives ordered the full rollout to take effect within hours. Errors would normally have paused the rollout.

One example of a weird thing that happened is that Facebook policies, which you both know very well, require prior content review and cross-checking of lists of sensitive accounts, including accounts of critical online infrastructure, to avoid harmful over-blocking of content. Whistle-blowers reported that “before the Australia takedown, apparently for the first time in its history, Facebook did not develop or utilize lists of sensitive accounts before activating the Australia takedown”, which threatened COVID vaccine rollouts, response to wildfires and more.

In response to other Facebook employees who were trying to fix the over-blocking, an Australian response team member posted acknowledgement that guidance from the policy and legal teams had been found to be overinclusive in blocking.

Ms. Curran, you were very nicely answering my questions earlier. Can you confirm that you will not be over-inclusive in blocking and that you will develop a list of sensitive accounts to avoid over-blocking?

[Rachel Curran]

Thank you, Mr. Housefather, for the question.

Through the chair, yes, it is absolutely our intention not to make the same errors in Canada that we made in Australia. We're working very hard to make sure that's not the case.

Of course, the way we do this is going to depend, by necessity, on the final scope of Bill C-18 and how it emerges from Parliament.

We will be absolutely transparent with parliamentarians and with Canadians. I'm happy to have the conversation with your office about these details as well, Mr. Housefather.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Thank you. I'm happy to do that.

Could I also confirm that you will not block government IP addresses? I think that was another thing that happened in Australia that could be avoided here.

[Rachel Curran]

Yes, Mr. Housefather. We are not going to block government pages, emergency service pages or community organizations. With regard to some of the things that were mistakenly scooped into scope in Australia, we're working very hard to make sure we do not do that this time.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Was there a post-mortem done of the Australian situation?

One would think that with such an huge overreach, there would have been a very quick post-mortem to make sure that the process didn't repeat itself. Was there a post-mortem done?

[Rachel Curran]

Yes, my understanding is that there was a post-mortem. That is informing the way we are proceeding with ending the availability of news in Canada as well.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

To the extent that you're able to, would you be able to share the findings of the post-mortem, at least the high-level findings, so that we can see what will not be repeated, based on what you learned?

[Rachel Curran]

We'd be happy to follow up with your office, Mr. Housefather, and have that conversation.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

As my last question, in Australia there was no appeals mechanism. Was that being appealed?

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

You have one second. I'm sorry, but you've run out of time.

Ms. Curran—

[Rachel Curran]

The answer is yes, Mr. Housefather.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

—please send that information to the committee—

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Thank you, ma'am.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

—and not simply to Mr. Housefather.

Thank you very much.

Martin, you have one and a half minutes. Go ahead, please.