Canadian Heritage Committee on Feb. 28th, 2022

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

The department isn't considering it per se. However, I know that my colleague, Ms. Qualtrough, is conducting an analysis of the whole issue of employment insurance reform. We've taken many concrete steps for people who didn't have access to employment insurance. I must applaud all our work on this issue, which has been extremely productive for Canadians. It has given us the opportunity to include self‑employed people, for example.

I think that this broader review will certainly provide answers to your questions.

We're continuing to provide support by quickly implementing innovative programs.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Another issue, of course, is employment insurance and the fact that it really doesn't respond to our artists who often have these difficulties. It's a bit of a roller-coaster ride for often very dedicated people who want to practise their craft. We've certainly seen it over the last couple of years with COVID.

Within your ministry, are you also looking at changes to employment insurance that would make it a much more viable program for artists, for people who are in the television and radio industries and movies and all of these sectors that have been hard hit through COVID and where there is a real difficulty in establishing a stable income?

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Everything that has been done is done through the work of my colleague, Carla Qualtrough, who is very sensitive to the reality of workers in the culture sector. We had the chance to discuss it, and I'm sure she's looking at different options.

One of the things we realized, and that you already know, Mr. Julian, is that a lot of people in the culture sector have no safety net, right? A lot of them are independent workers. That's one of the reasons we put in place this program here, and I'm sure those are things she's analyzing at this moment.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you very much. I think we're finished with your time, Peter. I'm sorry.

We're going to go now to the second round on the second round. That's Rachael Thomas, for the Conservatives.

Ms. Thomas, go ahead for five minutes.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

Minister, thank you for giving us your time today.

When you opened up with your starting comments, you mentioned how important Canadian arts and culture are. Of course, I agree with that. When it comes to regulating arts and culture on the Internet, Canadians have quite a few concerns regarding the latest piece of legislation, Bill C-11.

Minister, I'm wondering if you can define for me what is meant by “programs” within that legislation?

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

As we said during the campaign, we heard some concerns, and I think we fixed those, right?

The two very important parts of that bill are clause 2, which you can see excludes the users, and clause 4, which excludes the content. There's one very small exception, which is commercial content—

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Minister, with all due respect, you know I have a short amount of time. Please answer my question.

How do you define “programs”?

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

I'm sorry but I don't understand your question. What exactly do you mean by that?

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Bill C-11 regulates the uploading and transmission of “programs”. That's the word used in the legislation. If that's what it's doing, I'm wondering what is meant by “programs”.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

I know what you mean. You are referring to all of the discussions we've had about user-generated content and all of the people with those different programs, right?

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

What I hear you saying, then, is that “programs” include user-generated content. That's what you just stated.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

No, they don't. I'm saying that they don't.

I think you're referring to—

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Then, Minister, what are “programs”?

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

They're Canadian stories, music, filming that we're doing, and the music that's been recorded.

They're not what you're saying. They're not TikTok posts or Instagram posts. They're not the people who can have a million viewers. They're great. I have met with them. They're amazing. They're so creative. Some of them are 19, 20, 21. They're doing incredible stuff, but it's not about them.

I'll give you a quick example. If you have a commercial song from The Weeknd on YouTube and on Spotify, it should be treated the same way. That's what we're talking about.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Okay.

Minister, do you know what a grid code is?

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

I'm sorry, but do I know what?

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Do you know what a grid code is?

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

It's the code for commercial content.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

A grid code is a system to identify a release of digital sound recordings, as well as other digital data for electronic distribution. Every piece of digital content that has composition music actually has a grid code attached to it. That means that TikTok videos—as you've stated—podcasts, YouTube videos and so on will all have a grid code attached to them, because, as you know, individuals who are posting those things usually attach music. I attach music. You often attach music, and maybe even Hedy Fry attaches music to her things. There's a grid code, Minister, and you just said that anything with a grid code will be regulated by this legislation, because it will be declared a program.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

It's not the only thing that specifies that. It's not for TikTok. In a TikTok you take a minute and a piece of a song and you do your thing using that piece of a song. What we're talking about here is musical content that is equal to what you find on YouTube, Apple Music, or whatever.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Right, so, Minister, anyone who produces a TikTok video will have a grid code attached to their content. What you're telling me today—

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Ms. Thomas, there are other criteria. It's not only the code. That's one of the things the CRTC will be looking at, but there's other stuff.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

I'm glad you're mentioning that there are other criteria, because based on my reading of the legislation—and not just mine but readings by experts such as Dr. Michael Geist—those criteria are very subjective and actually leave it up to the CRTC to determine to what extent those criteria are being considered.

Minister, I'm wondering, since you're placing such emphasis on criteria, if you would be willing to change the legislation to make it very clear, so that the waters are no longer muddied and the CRTC knows exactly—I hope those notes are helpful to you—how to apply those criteria.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

What we did was to give a sandbox to the CRTC. You can see in the—

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

I've heard your sandbox speech.