Canadian Heritage Committee on Feb. 28th, 2022

[Thomas Owen Ripley]

A broadcaster includes a variety of different types of undertaking. We're going to take a little dive here into technicality, but it would include your traditional over-the-air broadcasters, as well as things we would commonly call TV channels. Those would be your specialty TV channels. There's a subcategory that focuses on cable and satellite distributors, so that would be your Rogers cable or your Videotron package.

Bill C-11 then proposes to create a new category, which is the category of “online undertaking”, and it's that category that is designed to capture the streaming services, like Netflix, Crave, Disney+, TOU.TV, etc.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

In Bill C-11, is that clearly defined in the terms you've stated here today?

[Thomas Owen Ripley]

Do you mean the definition of an online broadcaster? I could pull it up for you, but in short, it's in the.... Give me one second, Ms. Thomas.

It's as follows:

online undertaking means an undertaking for the transmission or retransmission of programs over the Internet for reception by the public by means of broadcasting receiving apparatus

Again, it's this definition that will capture your streaming services, like Netflix, Crave, etc.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Okay, but coming back to “program”, are you able to offer a clear definition of what is meant by that in the bill? It's not defined in the legislation itself.

[Thomas Owen Ripley]

I have been following the debate with respect to that specific term. What I would offer to you, Ms. Thomas, is that the definition has to be looked at in the broader legislative scheme and understood in the context of the Broadcasting Act, which is seeking to achieve certain specific cultural policy objectives.

The term “program” is audio or audiovisual material or content—again, that excludes primarily text-based content—in a context where the focus is on those services. In the traditional world, it's the TV channels and the cable and satellite services, but in the digital environment, it is things like streaming services, which offer programs that have a grounding in what the act is trying to achieve.

I would offer that you can't look at it in isolation; it has to be looked at in that broader legislative scheme.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

It really is up to the CRTC to determine, then, if it's going to be looked at in a broader scheme. With all due respect, Mr. Ripley, I know you're trying your hardest, but the explanation you just offered was fairly convoluted. At the end of the day, is there an intent to define specifically what is meant by “program” in this bill, or will that be left up to the CRTC?

[Thomas Owen Ripley]

The concept of “program” is well understood. The Broadcasting Act is something that has been in effect for a while now.

It is important to remember that the Broadcasting Act is not about regulating individual pieces of content, no matter on which service they're found. The intention is to regulate services, so the question is whether a service like Netflix, Disney+ or YouTube is subject to the act with respect to the programs that are distributed by those services.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you. Your time is up.

I'm going to go now to Ms. Hepfner—

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Madam Chair, I'm timing myself and I have 39 more seconds.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

I'm sorry. I'm timing you on this, and—

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Madam Chair, I would highlight for you that you said that the minister was with us for an hour and three-quarters, so one hour and 45 minutes. I think you might have a bit of trouble keeping track of time. The minister was actually with us for only 65 minutes, with all due respect.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

I am sorry, then. All of my clocks, including my [Inaudible—Editor], are wrong.

Ms. Thomas, do you really want to debate this right now, or do you want us to get on with Ms. Hepfner having her five minutes?

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Madam Chair, I'm going to concede to you, but the minister was here for only 65 minutes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Then all of my clocks and devices are wrong.

Thank you.

Lisa, you have five minutes.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'm going to go in a different direction.

Earlier, this committee heard from the Art Gallery of Hamilton. We know that this is the oldest municipal art gallery in Ontario. When it reopened late in the pandemic with new exhibitions, it was so popular that people were lined up out the door. It was absolutely packed. We know how important these institutions are to our cities.

One concern we heard from the Art Gallery of Hamilton was about aging infrastructure. I'm wondering if you can talk about the sorts of supports that have been there for places like the Art Gallery of Hamilton. What might they turn to in order to protect their important locations and spaces in our cities?

[Joëlle Montminy]

We have the Canada cultural spaces fund, which supports the construction and renovation of facilities, the acquisition of special equipment and the development of feasibility studies for arts and heritage organizations. This is a specific program in terms of infrastructure and equipment for these types of cultural spaces.

In budget 2021, the fund was given $50 million of additional funding to help organizations and venues like this deal with public health measures and adapting the space to that effect.

I cannot tell you if this particular institution is a recipient of this fund. I don't have the detailed list, but this is a program that could be made available to help such an institution.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Thank you very much.

Madam Chair, we heard from a lot of different witnesses at this committee that many artists and artistic organizations had to adapt to digital offerings during the pandemic. People relied on those digital offerings to get through the pandemic. For a lot of arts organizations, it was really a new thing to suddenly have a digital component to what they offer.

What was the government's response? In what ways was the government able to support this digital revolution?

[David Dendooven]

That's a good question. In fact, from the funding that we received in budget 2021, a number of our programs provided some funding for the digital element.

You made reference, for example, to the art gallery. I made reference to the museum fund. I know that some of the museums that applied did get some funding for the digital aspect, perhaps to help hire someone to look at that aspect. As was noted, our sectors had to go online in order to reach their audience. With some of the funding that went out, we certainly saw some of the organizations using that money for that.

I'll make reference to the recovery and the reopening fund in budget 2021. There was money in that for the digital aspect.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Thank you very much.

I'll go back to the art gallery again. It looks like there's no problem with audience hesitancy at the art gallery. As soon as it was open, it was packed. However, we heard from a lot of arts organizations that there is hesitancy among the public to go back to live shows and congregate, for example.

What's the government doing about this? Are there supports to help arts organizations get back to a more normal type of operation?

[Joëlle Montminy]

I will mention that there are three programs in particular that can be used to support the safe return to audience and to rebuild public confidence. I just mentioned the $50 million that was allocated to the cultural spaces fund. This is to make people feel safe in terms of all of the public health restrictions. The fund can be used for whatever else needs to be done in terms of adjusting the space.

We have another fund, which is the Canada cultural investment fund. This one supports strategic initiatives. It allows multiple organizations to come together to carry out different things, including joint marketing and cross-promotional initiatives. We really hope we will get applications from arts organizations and other groups in the cultural sector to come and take advantage of this fund, so that they can encourage the public to come back. We believe it will take enhanced marketing and promotions for people to understand that the place is safe and that measures have been put in place, or that the venues can accommodate the public once again.

We also have our arts presentation fund, which is for large professional presentation festivals and some of these similar types of expenses. Marketing and promotions are eligible expenses, so this covers those. We have over 600 clients, and we hope they will take advantage of this type of fund for additional marketing to help get audiences to return.

As you've heard as well, there's a fear that recovery for live performances will take a long time, so we really want to do everything in our power to support a safe return.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you very much.

I just want to take the chair's prerogative to ask one question.

I have been hearing from a lot of artists, especially performing artists, who have been suggesting that there is a program in the United Kingdom called prescription arts, under which physicians are allowed to write a prescription, let's say, for somebody with Parkinson's who has mobility issues, so that person can join a dance group, and for other people to join, because art is seen as being part of a health spectrum that includes healing, mental health, etc.

Have you heard of that? Is there any discussion about that within the department?

[Joëlle Montminy]

I am not personally aware of this program, but we are currently looking at all of our programs with a lens of becoming more diverse and inclusive, as well as more accessible. This is definitely something we'll look into to see if there is some application or something similar that could be done here in Canada.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you very much. I would like you to look into it. In the United Kingdom, apparently, it is a bona fide government program.

I want to thank you for staying and for answering questions.

Again, I would like to thank the committee for being here. I'd like to thank the clerk and everyone for working so hard this afternoon.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Madam Chair, on a point of order, I just want to suggest that if it were possible to get these rooms in West Block for committee meetings, that would be a big advantage. For those of us who have to stay for Routine Proceedings, that would allow us to just come right downstairs and get to work, so through you to the clerk, if we're able to get this room, it would be a big advantage.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

I will just punt that question to the clerk.