Canadian Heritage Committee on May 29th, 2023

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Kevin Waugh]

Thank you, Mr. Champoux. You are right on time.

We move to the New Democratic Party and Mr. Julian for six minutes.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you very much to the witnesses for being here today.

Mr. Rodriguez, on behalf of the committee, I offer our deepest condolences for your father's passing. I know that it's a very difficult time for you, and we are grateful to you for being available to still coming to the committee. Our thoughts are with you, as well as with your entire family.

I want to address the issue of online hate. We are seeing more and more cases of violence caused by the far right, which spreads hate against religious minorities, racialized people and the LGBTQ+ community. We see all this expression of hate online. Several years ago, the government promised to put forward bills to counter it.

Where are we at? When can we hope to see a bill to fight this epidemic?

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Thank you for the question, which is becoming more and more significant as events unfold. I also thank you for your words about my father, Mr. Julian.

The work is quite far along and will have the chance to tell you more very soon. I had the opportunity, with Mr. Bittle and other members, to consult members of different religious communities in every province and territory, as well as parents whose children took their own lives. I'll always remember my conversation with Amanda Todd's mother in British Columbia. I will always remember my conversations with parents whose children took their own lives because they were the victims of threats and sexual extortion.

You're right to say that it's a growing concern, especially because the people who spend the most time online, our children, are also the most vulnerable. There is an alarming number of not only teenagers, which is already very serious, but also 9-year or 10-year-old children taking their own lives.

We realize that online hate, as you know, Mr. Julian, doesn't stay online. It ends up on our streets. We saw it here and in Washington. We see it regularly. Online hate Is real hate.

So, to answer your question, work on the bill will be done very soon.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

All right, but when is "very soon"? Will it be in two weeks? Will it be in the fall?

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

I can't tell you right now. It will not be any later than the fall, but I can't tell you when.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Okay. I'll come back to this question, because I also note in the estimates a decrease of nearly $12 million for the community support, multiculturalism and anti-racism initiatives in your department. I mentioned earlier the increases in hate crimes provoked by the extreme right. In anti-Semitism and Islamophobia, there's a 67% increase; in crimes related to sexual orientation, there's a 64% increase; in race and ethnicity, there's a 6% increase. This is over the course of the last couple of years.

We see a decrease in funding at the same time that we see a marked increase in police-reported hate crime. I want to know how the government manages that contradiction in decreasing funding at a time when anti-racism initiatives are needed more than ever.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

On that note, I'll turn to Madame Mondou. I'm the one who created the anti-racism strategy the first time I was minister, but that is not under me anymore. That is under Minister Hussen.

I'll turn to Madame Mondou, because she knows that file very well.

[Isabelle Mondou, Deputy Minister, Department of Canadian Heritage]

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chair, for the question.

You're right that there was a decrease, but there was money in budget 2023 to support these efforts. As you may know, an anti-racism strategy has been developed. There is now an anti-hate strategy that the minister is planning to launch, probably in the fall. All of those are coming with additional money.

That drop in funding is temporary, because more money came in budget 2023, and we hope additional money will come also in the context of those two other initiatives.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you for your comments. I would stress that at a time when we're seeing increased hate from the extreme right, there is no doubt that funding is needed more than ever. These initiatives are needed more than ever.

I'm going to turn now to CBC/Radio-Canada.

The mandate suggested that more money and resources be given to CBC/Radio-Canada. It's an important institution across the country.

With regard to funding for the CBC, do you have a sense when the funds to reduce CBC/Radio-Canada's reliance on advertising revenue would be provided? How do you see CBC/Radio-Canada, a vitally important cultural institution for our country, moving forward?

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

You're absolutely right that CBC plays a fundamental role in our country, with a very specific mandate to support minority-language communities, to be present in regions and to help us understand what's going on in the world. As you know, in my mandate letter one thing that I have to do and that I'm starting now is the review, la révision, of the CBC/Radio-Canada mandate. That will be ongoing. Then we will be analyzing all that at the same time.

Remember that CBC, like other institutions, will also benefit from Bill C-18 eventually, so there's something there.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Kevin Waugh]

Thank you, Minister, and thank you, Mr. Julian.

We'll move to the second round. It's a five-minute round.

We will start with Melissa Lantsman for the Conservatives.

[Melissa Lantsman, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

Thank you.

Thanks to our witnesses for coming, and welcome, Minister.

I want to go back to what my colleague was talking about on Bill C-11, and particularly with regard to the CRTC consultation. It says that they are going to consult on what constitutes a “social media service”. Can you define what constitutes a social media service?

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Do you mean what the platforms are?

[Melissa Lantsman, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

Yes.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Platforms are there, on the Internet, used by Canadians and people all over the world.

[Melissa Lantsman, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

Yes. If it was so easy for you to define that, why is the CRTC consulting? Why isn't it in the bill?

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Oh, as to why they're doing that, you'll have to ask the CRTC. They're independent. What I'm going to do very soon is send a set of directives. They're going to be consulting. I'll be consulting on that and then sending them the final version. They'll be consulting on their own.

[Melissa Lantsman, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

There is no doubt going to be a discussion about whether aspects of certain social media services would be covered by the Online Streaming Act. Why not put the definition right in the bill, or why not accept clause 4 to keep user-generated content out of the legislation? Why not just accept those regulations?

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Ms. Lantsman, it is out of the scope of the bill. There will be more precision in my policy directive.

Once again, a lot of people said this will affect user-generated content, but there's no obligation on them. The obligations are only on the platforms. It's about the platforms, not the users or the creators.

[Melissa Lantsman, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

If you're certain about that, why not include it in legislation, not in regulation, to give people certainty that it won't be included? This is not coming just from this committee, but from a wide array of creators who are concerned about the very same thing.

You have that amendment from the Senate. Why not include it, unless there's another agenda?

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

That's where your party and ours disagree. We think that with the bill as is, it is excluded. It's totally excluded. We said, and the CRTC said, that there is no interest in the content, even if the content is great. However, imagine, as I said, the millions of videos uploaded every day. Who would be watching them if they were interested in the content? No one could, even if they were interested, but they're not.

The only thing we need to know is what the revenues are, so that based on that, we can say, “Okay, this platform and that platform have to contribute a certain percentage or amount to the creation of Canadian culture.”

[Melissa Lantsman, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

In the way you defined it, though, the user platforms, such as YouTube or Facebook, along with their content, are included. In your understanding—

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

No.

[Melissa Lantsman, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

You claim that the user content on these outlets somehow won't be impacted by Bill C-11. That's the claim you're making. How do you square that circle?