Canadian Heritage Committee on May 29th, 2023

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

I don't see Facebook included in this. YouTube could be, because sometimes people upload the exact same thing you would get on Spotify, for example—the same song. If it's treated one way on Spotify, it should be treated the same way on YouTube. That's it.

As for the rest, I don't think that's [Inaudible—Editor].

[Melissa Lantsman, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

You can understand why this is confusing. Again, why not include it in the bill?

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

The bill is clear. The bill excludes them. We've had this discussion for over a year now—

[Melissa Lantsman, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

It's clear as mud.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

We respectfully disagree on that.

[Melissa Lantsman, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

It's not really a disagreement; it's just that it's not clear.

Minister, I want to go back to the case of Laith Marouf. That's the consultant who got at least $133,000 from the ministry, and it took over a month to do anything about it or, frankly, to get acknowledgement from your office.

I want to know whether that $133,000 has been paid back.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Again, I'll turn to Madame Mondou. This was under me the first time, when I was Minister of Canadian Heritage and multiculturalism, but I'm not the minister for multiculturalism anymore. It's Mr. Hussen, so I'll turn to Madame Mondou.

[Isabelle Mondou]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

We are in a recovery process. We are using two avenues. The first one is a recovery agency, and the other one is the CRA.

[Melissa Lantsman, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

It still hasn't been paid back.

[Isabelle Mondou]

No.

[Melissa Lantsman, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

Has anybody faced consequences for hiring Laith Marouf? Has anybody been fired?

In a regular job, in a regular place, if you do something like that, there are consequences. Has anybody at all in the ministry faced consequences for the vile anti-Semitism in funding Laith Marouf?

[Isabelle Mondou]

Just to be clear, he was not hired by the department; the organization that hired him was receiving funding from the department. He was not hired by the department.

I think my colleague Mala was here and explained that a lot of measures have been put in place to try to avoid that kind of event in the future, including better screening and monitoring. People have also been provided with training.

I have to say, in all honesty, that we are producing, as I think the minister was saying, $1.7 billion a year in grants and contributions. We have a lot of employees who are very devoted to their work, and they do their best.

Having said that, I am personally sorry for what happened. I can tell you that everybody in the department is extremely sorry about it.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Kevin Waugh]

Thank you, Ms. Mondou. Thank you, Ms. Lantsman. We'll move to the Liberal Party.

Michael Coteau is online. Welcome, Michael.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I appreciate the opportunity.

Minister, thank you so much for being here today and for joining our committee.

I've been on this committee and obviously in the House. I've heard politicians talk about cutting funding to Radio-Canada and cutting funding to public television. I grew up watching a lot of TV shows on public television. In Ontario, we have TVOntario, which we hold in high regard in our province as well. I think public television is a good thing for Ontarians and for Canadians.

In regard to the rhetoric around cutting funding, as the minister responsible for heritage in Canada, when you hear these things, what does that mean to you?

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

I think it's very sad because of the importance of our public broadcaster.

CBC/Radio-Canada played and is still playing a fundamental role in our country in the same way that the BBC and others do in other countries. It has a clear mandate to support language minorities across the country—francophones outside Quebec and anglophones in Quebec. We see the coverage and quality of what they do internationally and how they've helped Canadians understand the world throughout decades. It has among the best information there is when things happen outside the borders of our country.

My first reaction is to say that it's very sad.

The second reaction is that I'm not sure they understand what they're saying, because CBC/Radio-Canada is one. It has the same president, the same work, the same structure, the same head office, the same offices. The same cameras are used. The same microphones are used. The same “anything rooms” are used. Quite often the same journalists are used.

Quite often I will give an interview in French, and then the journalists will switch and ask me the same questions in English, or the opposite if they start in English. When do you stop paying that person? If that same journalist is asking you a question in French and then switches to English, do you stop paying the salary of that person because you say, “No, in English you're not going to be paid. We're not going to support you”?

It doesn't make any sense, because CBC also has to respect the law on official languages.

The opposition is also sending the message to the anglophone minority in Quebec that we don't care about them. Francophones outside of Quebec can have the services of Radio-Canada, but anglophones in Quebec will not have access to CBC, which comes to the same sentiment that I had at the beginning. I find it very sad.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Thank you very much, Minister.

Continuing on that thread around diversity and the vast regions of this great country, we have so many different communities that make up Canada. What is your department doing to ensure that our programs and services are connecting and supporting all communities across this country, with an emphasis on indigenous and also racialized minorities in this country? Can you comment on some of the strategies and programs that you've put in place to ensure that there's a balance out there?

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Absolutely. We do it in different ways.

For example, for indigenous people, one of the things I'm most proud of is that when I was heritage minister the first time, we put in place Bill C-91 on indigenous languages. That passed and became reality. Now the office is in place and we are supporting it, and we now have bills with the three NIOs, the national indigenous organizations for the Métis, the first nations and the Inuit, to support them in their efforts, in some cases simply to have their language survive.

This will help us not only to teach the language but also to have more music, more television and more films for indigenous people. This will help young indigenous people to be prouder of who they are, because they will see themselves in all of those productions. It is the same for racialized people. Bill C-11, for example, is asking for some of the contribution, the money we're getting, to go to racialized, indigenous and different under-represented groups. Why? It's because it's the right thing to do.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Kevin Waugh]

Michael, your time is up.

Thank you, Michael. Thank you, Minister.

We'll move now to the Bloc for two and a half minutes. Mr. Champoux, you are up again.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, I'd like your opinion on the attitude that has been shown here by representatives of Google and Meta regarding Bill C‑18 during recent meetings we've had at this committee with these people.

How did you react to their threats? How do you intend to respond?

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

I probably reacted the same way you did, Mr. Champoux.

I think most of us agree that there are actions taken that are unacceptable and also demonstrate a great deal of arrogance. Just because they're big and rich doesn't give them the right to come here and intimidate us and tell the Government of Canada, the opposition or whoever is elected, or even the Senate, what to do with our democracy and our laws.

I find it deeply disturbing to see Google take away news access from a portion of Canadians. We'll see what happens next. It's a business decision they'll make, but both companies make a lot of money here in Canada. To me, such actions are a threat to our democracy.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Do you get the impression that, if Meta or Google make good on their threats, this lack of possible funding for our media could hurt? Do you get the impression that this makes smaller media, such as weeklies, which are already very much in peril, even more vulnerable?

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Yes, this could be an additional challenge. We need to make that clear. Currently, the way to access news is to click on links and be directed to one news site or another.

I remain convinced, however, that we can find a way to collaborate. You know, Canada isn't the only country to have highlighted this issue. Australia has preceded us in taking action. The Americans on both sides of the House are currently discussing it, as are France, England and Europe.

So we're going to have to find a way to work with these web giants, but I'm not going to accept any threats under any circumstances.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

There's something that often comes up when you talk to small media that don't belong to big groups. They have difficulty making a good digital transition. They don't have the means to make a digital transition that allows them to compete in this changing world. They're used to printing newspapers. It's not the same thing.

Does the government intend to help them make a good digital transition? Couldn't you help them become a little more efficient in this regard?

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

That's a very good question. It's something we're considering.

There are many examples of excellent media that didn't make that transition or couldn't make it fast enough. Unfortunately, they ceased to exist.

However, we put forward a host of programs, the first time I was Minister of Canadian Heritage. I'm very proud, for example, of the $600 million for media newsroom payroll. There's also the $50 million for regional media. These are ways of helping them.

As you say, Mr. Champoux, we always have to look at other ways to help them.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Thank you.

I think my time is up.