Canadian Heritage Committee on May 29th, 2023

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

If there are things, please forward them to the committee.

Let's turn to the different museums. We have the Museum of History, the Canadian Museum of Immigration at Pier 21, the Museum of Nature and the Canada Science and Technology Museum. If we look at the estimates, we can see that the funding has not increased; in fact, it has decreased for many. They are concerned about their ability to continue to operate.

I wondered what the government is doing, what the minister is doing, to help these organizations move to become financially self-sustainable, ultimately.

These are great places to go. There are business models out there that would say they should be able to sustain themselves. We certainly don't want to lose them, so I'd be interested if the minister could comment about that.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Thank you for raising the importance of those museums. You're absolutely right. Whenever I get the chance, I like to go to Winnipeg to the human rights museum or to Pier 21, and I'm sure you guys do the same.

I can say that for the first time in a very long time, we increased the budget. There was an increase of $53 million in the last budget. Mr. Doiron, maybe you'd like to give more details about it.

I think some very good news in that last budget was that $53 million, because for years and years those important institutions have not received supplementary funding, but now they do.

I don't know if there's anything to add to that.

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

There's one other thing that I want to know.

When we had Meta and Google here, talking about they would react if Bill C-11 in its current form passed, they indicated they would likely block the ability to stream news.

I know that Australia had discussions with them when they were going through their legislation. Have you had similar discussions to come to some resolution so that Canadians don't lose their access through Meta and Google?

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

I think you're referring to Bill C-18, Madam Gladu.

We've had many discussions. Those who know me know that my door is always open. A lot of them have my cellphone. I'm always ready to discuss with them, with their representatives. My team and our public servants have been discussing with them all the time, and my door is still open.

I don't like this impression of confrontation. We may disagree on stuff, but there is still a lot of stuff we can do together. My door is still open to see if we can discuss.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Kevin Waugh]

Thank you, Minister. Thank you, Ms. Gladu.

We'll move to the Liberal Party and Tim Louis for five minutes.

[Tim Louis, Liberal, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

Thank you, Chair. I appreciate another chance to talk again.

Minister, you mentioned the idea in the mandate of holding a national summit of the arts, culture and heritage. You did that, and I was very appreciative. It was a few months ago, and I was very glad to be part of it. It was very important. It was a very powerful and constructive debate that we had on arts in general, talking about how arts are a mirror for social change and bring the whole cultural industry together, artists or creators. That was a very important and timely thing. I really appreciated that.

We had lots of new ideas. There was innovation and a new energy in the entire cultural system. We talked about our museums, music, books, film, theatres and even the Internet.

I was wondering if you could tell me what you got out of that national summit and expand on some of the things that we discussed and what you learned from that summit.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

First of all, I want to thank you, Mr. Louis, for your contributions, not only on this committee but in different conversations. You're an artist, and I have a lot to learn from you. I think we have a lot to learn from you. You know your stuff probably more than all of us, so thank you very much for what you've done.

It's the same as Ms. Hepfner's knowing the media sector extremely well, and it's been extremely helpful to have her with us to prepare Bill C-18.

Probably the most important thing was just seeing each other at that summit. Remember, that was in the middle of the pandemic. It was a year ago in the month of May. It was cute to see our faces on screens, but the fact is that we gathered 400 people from all over the country, specialists in museums, music, movies, television and books. It was simply amazing to have the human contact and the chance to share our point of view and our best experiences. There were things that were done in B.C. that we could learn from, and other things that were done in Quebec that we could learn from. I think it was the perfect forum to share those experiences and the challenges of the future.

I was discussing earlier today the fragility of the sector, the job situation and the instability. How can we help these people who want to follow their passion so that they don't have to leave their jobs and go work in a restaurant or anywhere else? I know they're all good jobs, but they're not doing what they love, what their passion is, so how can we help them? How can we offer more support, comfort and stability to a mother who is a ballet dancer but doesn't have the stability required to pay the mortgage, the rent, and this and that?

I think that it was very welcomed by all the sectors. I think all of us learned quite a lot, and that also helped us put in place some of the programs that followed to help in terms of support during the pandemic.

[Tim Louis, Liberal, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

Thank you.

One thing I took out of it was that there are larger organizations and then there are smaller organizations, lots of self-employed and small companies, theatre companies, that all need support at the same time. I was very happy to hear that discussion happening at all levels.

We faced challenges to overcome the pandemic in a culture that asks to bring people together, and all of a sudden we were unable to do that. Those were the challenges we had to overcome, but there are also some potential gains we can make moving forward. I think legislation like Bill C-11 and Bill C-18 will be very important to modernize how we support our cultural sector, so I do appreciate that.

We talked about Bill C-18 and supporting papers, so I wonder if you could expand on that, because in my riding of Kitchener—Conestoga we have those small weekly papers, and they are feeling the lack of advertising revenue and are having trouble keeping people on staff and staying afloat. Can you expand on how those small papers are going to be supported by Bill C-18? Maybe use Australia as an example of how legislation similar to this has worked in other countries.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Kevin Waugh]

Be quick, Minister, if you don't mind.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

It's part of the solution, but not the whole solution. Bill C-18 will help those small papers because they can negotiate and they can have collective bargaining negotiations. This gives them way more strength to sit at the same table as giants like Google and Facebook.

There's also the periodical fund they have access to. They have access to the credit for newsrooms, the $600 million. There's a series of programs. We're looking at how to help them even more, because they're fundamental to our democracy. Even the smaller ones have their roles to play.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Kevin Waugh]

They do.

We will go to Mr. Champoux for two and a half minutes.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Shall we do as we did earlier, Mr. Chair?

Minister, earlier, my colleague Mr. Shields raised an important point, which I'd like to come back to. It's something I raise as often as I can, and that's federal government-bought advertising in the media. I talked about this in 2019, 2020, 2021 and 2022. We're now in 2023 and I'm still talking about it, since nothing has been done.

The advertising that the federal government buys is mainly bought on Google, Facebook and social media. We're in an era where the government tries to work with these web giants, but ends up fighting them to contribute. Small media outlets are absorbing phenomenal revenue losses while tens of millions of dollars are invested in the web giants—Google, Apple, Facebook, Amazon and Microsoft.

When we ask questions, we're told that each department manages its advertising budget envelope, that it's the agencies that choose where the money is directed, that the goal is to reach as many people as possible and, of course, that it ends up in the pockets of these web giants.

It would be nice, Minister, if we could stop passing the buck from one department to another and have someone in government say that enough is enough and that investing in advertising with these web giants doesn't make sense. This money, these tens of millions of dollars invested every year, must go into the pockets of our small media. The latter are crying out for help. Every week, another one closes its doors. There are also newsrooms that are no longer able to provide a quality service.

Today, I'd like you to commit to stop investing in these web giants and invest in Quebec and Canadian media. They are struggling and need the money.

Do you agree with me? Will you do something about it? I'd love to see that.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Champoux.

We're doing several things, and we're doing them together, by the way. Bill C‑18 is one part of it, as well as the payroll funds and—

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Yes, but I'm really talking about the advertising that's purchased.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

We buy very little or none at all.

The directives are issued by Treasury Board and each department follows them. It's not the Department of Canadian Heritage that does this. Perhaps the committee should invite my colleague to testify. I'll talk to her about it. I agree with you that there are other ways to help our small media. We try to do as much as we can—

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Yes, but you're their best spokesperson, since you're the Minister of Heritage. You're the one who hears their grievances and can best carry the message to the cabinet table. That's why I'm giving you this assignment. I know that you will have a strong voice and that you will respond to the urgency of the situation.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

You are kind, Mr. Champoux. I'll ask you to repeat that in question period.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

No, but it will appear in the minutes.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

All right, Mr. Champoux.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Thank you.

I won't take up any more of your time, Mr. Chair.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Kevin Waugh]

Thank you very much, Mr. Champoux.

Mr. Julian, it's two and a half minutes for you.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to return to the question of the National Gallery of Canada, located in Ottawa. For several months, if not years, its management had been problematic. It has lost many high-level employees.

Mr. Rodriguez, you've just told us that there's going to be a new director at the National Gallery. What criteria did you use to select this person? What key assets must he or she possess so that everyone can once again become proud of this museum?

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

That's a great question, because it's a position we've spent a lot of time on.

We're looking at several things. Here they are, in no particular order. We're looking for someone with museum experience, who has already run a museum and is recognized and respected by their peers; we're also looking for someone who is recognized and respected by donors and credible with major donors; this person must have personnel management experience and a track record of being able to manage a large number of employees, despite the challenges, and making sure it goes well; finally, we're looking for someone who wants to do this job.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Has the person already been selected?

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

We are at that point.