Canadian Heritage Committee on June 1st, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you very much, Mr. Bernard. Thank you, Martin. The time is up.

I would like to ask you to submit those documents to the clerk. If you have it in English and French, that would be great. If not, we'll have to send it off to be translated.

This committee, as a standing committee of the House of Commons, can deal with documents that are private. We have done it before and we are able to do that while ensuring that we do not publicize what you send us.

Please send it to the clerk if you can. Thank you.

Now I go to the second questioner in the first round. For the Liberals, I have Anthony Housefather.

You have six minutes, please.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thanks to the witnesses.

Mr. Bernard, you answered a question from Mr. Shields, and I want to give you a chance to reconsider it. You said there have been no non-disclosure agreements. Are you really sure that, in the history of the Canadian Fencing Federation, there have been no non-disclosure agreements binding on, for example, employees who have been dismissed and that nothing was signed in connection with the settlements? Are you really sure of that?

[Yann Bernard]

Not to my knowledge. There may have been non-disclosure agreements binding on us, but we've never entered into any that were binding on athletes or victims. I would consider that unacceptable.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

All right. I wanted to give you a chance to say so because you're under oath.

[Yann Bernard]

What follows clearly isn't a non-disclosure agreement, but certain policies apply in the disciplinary process of handling a complaint. For example, when a victim receives the report—because we give the victims or complainant a copy of the report—that person has an obligation not to use it or make it public. However, regardless of the report, those individuals know their stories, and I know of no rule that could prevent them from discussing them, subject of course to the rights of the people they concern.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Absolutely.

Let me go to Mr. Shoemaker. I believe my colleagues will have some other questions for you, Mr. Bernard.

First of all, thank you to the Canadian Olympic Committee for the work that you do. I very much appreciate it. I know that you have people who work for the COC behind you. Whether it's Andrea Thomas, or whoever, I appreciate all the work that your office, which is based in Montreal, does.

You are a very good partner to the Government of Canada in terms of helping us look at the situations that this committee has heard about and trying to improve things.

I imagine you have heard much of the testimony that this committee has heard.

Have you been shocked by any of the testimony?

For example, were you shocked about Bob Birarda and the way that Canada Soccer dealt with him, or the way that Hockey Canada dealt with the settlement of a sexual assault allegation without minuting it?

What are the things that you've heard in testimony before the committee that shocked you the most, Mr. Shoemaker?

[David Shoemaker]

I tried to watch and listen to as much of the testimony as possible. I've found the stories to be tragic.

I also commend those athletes for sharing their stories. I think it's taken an immense amount of bravery to come forward. I believe it's our obligation as sports leaders to use those stories and to channel them to make this system a safer one.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Was there anything, for example, in terms of governance?

First off, let's establish that, as you've said, the COC doesn't oversee the national sporting bodies. You have no power to compel them to do anything. You have no power to enforce them to do things unless it relates to their participation in the Olympic Games and how they qualify athletes for the Olympic Games.

Is that correct?

[David Shoemaker]

That's correct.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

COC can't discipline athletes just because it chooses to, unless, for example, it's a Ryan Lochte in Rio-type moment, when the conduct actually occurs in an Olympic Games. Is that correct?

[David Shoemaker]

Generally speaking, that's correct as well.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Have you been aware, though, of the difficulties, for example, that many of the national federations had with respect to their governance in terms of....?

Were you surprised when you heard that Hockey Canada didn't minute things or that Canada Soccer had no record of when somebody was cast aside or fired for alleged sex assault complaints and they didn't track them and didn't tell anybody?

Was this a surprise to you, or did you know this already?

[David Shoemaker]

No, this was a complete surprise to me and to my colleagues. We were not in a position to know this, so when we heard so many of these athletes come forward, their stories were shocking and horrific to us, yes.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

You talked a little about how we should deal with sexual misconduct going forward. That is certainly an issue that is of great importance. There's also the governance issue in terms of how a national federation should govern itself, ranging from athlete representation on boards to the question of having adequate policies and procedures in place—governance.

What recommendations would you give to this committee as we write our report? You were there when the minister announced some new actions. What recommendations would you give to our committee for when we write our report to the minister about better governance for national federations?

[David Shoemaker]

Let me say that part was less shocking to us. Even before I arrived at the Canadian Olympic Committee, my colleagues had identified that there was a lack of uniformity among governance and standards for the over 60 sports organizations. We channelled thousands of hours of governance experts pro bono and created, with the help of these experts, a Canadian sport governance code.

Just last month, the Minister of Sport announced that it would be mandatory for all of sport. Frankly, my hope is that it will eliminate the flow chart you might need to follow what rules apply to which sport. It leads to how boards are composed, how leaders are selected, how athletes must be represented on boards, and the financial transparency that must be evident in national sports organizations. These are very important things that are now best practices and mandated for national sports organizations.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

I agree.

I have one last question.

One thing that has always been apparent is that there are certain federations, like hockey and soccer, that have monies flowing in, so they have the ability to do a lot of these things, whereas, for example, an organization like fencing may not have those revenues and may need a lot more help.

What do you suggest we recommend in order to give the smaller federations that have fewer financial resources more help?

[David Shoemaker]

I'd like to hope that the measures that athletes ask for, so there is a place to go to complain about abuse and harassment free from fear or retribution, have been put in place at the national level.

My real concern is the alignment. There are millions of participants in sport at the provincial and club levels who don't have those same sorts of systems in place yet, and that's where I'd recommend we focus.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you very much, Anthony.

Thank you, Mr. Shoemaker.

Now I go to the Bloc Québécois and Sébastien Lemire.

You have six minutes, please, Sébastien.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mr. Shoemaker, I think it would be appropriate for Tricia Smith to be here too, since our committee wanted to have her and we're discussing the governance of the Canadian Olympic Committee in particular. However, I thank you for being here.

When the International Olympic Committee adopts a position that differs from that of Canadians or their way of thinking, what's your priority and whom do you defend first.

[David Shoemaker]

Our absolute obligation is to Canadians and to Canadian athletes.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you for that answer.

At the committee's last meeting on this study, we heard from representatives of the Own the Podium program. They told us they wanted to review their mission and said they were in favour of holding an independent public inquiry, which you just did as well.

In light of everything that's been stated publicly this past year, does the Canadian Olympic Committee also intend to review its mission and its mode of governance in order to showcase the athletes and a commitment to safe practice in sport?

[David Shoemaker]

I believe that we've already put in place the governance measures of which you speak. We have an athlete voice. We have six Olympians on the Canadian Olympic Committee board, two of whom come directly from our Athletes' Commission, Rosie MacLennan and Inaki Gomez, and broad board diversity from among several intersectionalities. Lest someone say we ought to review it, we've taken those steps already, and they're in place.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

I'd like us to discuss Julie Payette, who was hired in 2016 after Marcel Aubut resigned in 2015 as a result of a sex scandal.

Ms. Payette left the Canadian Olympic Committee in 2017 following two internal inquiries into her treatment of staff, including verbal harassment in one instance and, in another, a reprimand that left a young employee in tears. Did you check Ms. Payette's work history with the Montreal Science Centre before you hired her?

[David Shoemaker]

I wasn't with the Canadian Olympic Committee at that time, so I can't speak to what happened in 2016 and 2017.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

I see.

In 2018, the Own the Podium program was placed under the patronage of former Governor General Ms. Payette.

The Canadian Olympic Committee didn't immediately contact the Privy Council to inform it of its concerns regarding Ms. Payette's appointment as Governor General. It could have done so, and that might have prevented certain awkward situations for Canadians. In 2020, the Privy Council made an independent third party responsible for shedding light on the treatment of Rideau Hall employees who claimed that the Governor General had publicly demeaned, reprimanded or humiliated them.

After everything we've seen to date in more than 16 sports federations, how could we expect those federations to act differently if Canada's highest sports body, the Canadian Olympic Committee, didn't automatically sound the alarm when it was necessary, particularly as a result of its connection with the Own the Podium program? What message does that send to Canadians? Could the Canadian Olympic Committee find itself in that situation once again?