Canadian Heritage Committee on June 12th, 2023

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

Madam Chair, thank you very much.

Thank you, Ms. Auch.

We watched you for several years. Speed skating is of course very closely tied to Winnipeg and Saskatoon. We had Catriona Le May Doan, of course, competing with you. You were in the 500 metres and you did very well for us in Lillehammer and in Japan, which was great.

Own the Podium, if you don't mind my saying, as former broadcaster.... When we were preparing for the Calgary Olympics in 1988, and then when we saw what that gave the country, it was a sense of pride back in 1988, and of course you know very well what the Vancouver Olympics did in 2010.

At the time Own the Podium came on, it was all about medals. I agree with you, but when you're hosting the winter Olympics, as we did in Calgary and Vancouver, it's very important to get on the podium. I listened to what you said about Own the Podium, but I disagree in one way. In 2010, we needed Canadian athletes and teams to be on the podium. I think it gave this country a sense of pride. I know that you weren't involved—I don't think you were involved in 2010—but I would like to hear your thoughts on Own the Podium and what it was supposed to do, more than anything, in 2010 for Vancouver.

[Susan Auch]

As I said, the intentions of Own the Podium were excellent. I was actually a commentator with TSN, with the conglomerate in Vancouver, for short track. I was there, and I experienced that as probably one of my most enjoyable Olympics.

The money, as I said, is not the problem. The problem is that Own the Podium has evolved since 2005, I think, when it came into action. At that point, we had high-performance directors frustrated with the interference a little bit, but they didn't have high-performance advisers assigned to sports and designed to tell the experts in those sports exactly what they had to do with the money.

The amount of work our high-performance directors do to try to please Own the Podium is incredible. The experts in our sport are our hired high-performance directors. Own the Podium could have a place, but not the way it is right now. It is absolutely an organization that interferes and bullies national sport organizations unless you toe the line.

Again, a national inquiry would expose all of this. It would allow us to see if there is some sort of organization that might work better than an Own the Podium type.

For sure, I agree with you. Medals are exciting when we have a home Olympics, and we want them, but that—

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

We do, but you said to get rid of Own the Podium and set up a sports council. We have some sports councils in our provinces, so what would that look like if you set up a sports council and got rid of the OTP?

[Susan Auch]

I'm not saying to get rid of OTP outright. Part of OTP does benefit us, but it overlaps with the Canadian sport institutes, the coaching associations and all those other multi-sport organizations.

I think what would be helpful.... What I was frustrated with was the lack of nimbleness that a Sport Canada-type federal organization can handle. My only experience is with Alberta, when I got into real estate and instead of the Alberta Securities Commission guiding the real estate in Alberta, it had the Real Estate Council of Alberta, which was able to be a little bit at arm's length from the government organizations, so it could function the way it needed to in order to be as efficient and cost-effective as possible, but it was also nimble at making decisions and being there to support the organizations it was supposed to be supporting.

I think one of the problems is that we get very bureaucratic in Canada. I'm not sure why sport is governed by a federal organization, as opposed to a council. I think that would be a much better thing. Again, a national inquiry would answer so many of these questions. I don't have all the answers, for sure. I am not an expert in this realm.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

Okay—

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

You have 27 seconds.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

We've talked around the table. We want former athletes involved. You were involved. I mean, you were a great athlete for our country. Then you went on as a board member, and then you went on as president. Why did you get forced out in October 2022?

[Susan Auch]

The sport system does not want athletes involved, not at the volunteer or staff levels. That's a farce. I was prejudiced against because an athlete can't possibly know enough about running an organization. A woman athlete and a woman president who was an athlete can't possibly know how to run a sport organization.

It's not what you think. We are not that wanted once we're done with sport. We are very wanted when we're athletes, but we're not that wanted for our expertise once we're done.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you, Ms. Auch.

Now we go to the Liberals.

Michael, you have five minutes, please.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses here today.

My question is going to be for Mr. Subban.

It's nice to see you, sir. It's interesting. I was thinking that we worked at the school board together, and we worked provincially together, and here we are in this forum, so it's nice to see you again.

The issue you brought up is a very important issue, and I agree with you 100%, but I want to tap into some other expertise. I know that you were there building the sport strategy for Ontario. I know you're a successful educator, a principal and the father of three NHL players.

I'll just remind you of a little story. I don't know if you remember this, but about a decade ago I called you, because a coach called me. The coach had some problems. He had a young Black player who kept being harassed. The N-word was constantly being used. The coach called me and asked me to speak to him. I said, “You know, Karl would be better equipped to talk to this young man.” It's an issue that you and I have talked about many times.

With safe sport, racism obviously has a place in this conversation. We haven't had a lot of experts come in to talk about this, but could you, from your experience, talk about the current state of hockey, in particular when it comes to racism, if you're okay doing that?

[Karl Subban]

Thank you. It's nice seeing you again.

In terms of racism in sport, obviously when we started out we did not look like the typical hockey family. There were so many obstacles in our way. Obviously, one was our skin colour. When we started out with P.K., my first son, everyone knew who P.K.'s parents were because we were the only people of colour in the arena. Things have changed, you know. When my last son, Jordan Subban, was drafted to the OHL, I think there were 17 kids of colour that year. That's good.

Unfortunately, there is still this lingering problem in the arena. Obviously, cost is a problem and, obviously, racism is a problem. The GTHL struck an independent committee. I was one of a number of people on that committee who came up with 44 recommendations for how we can make the sport more welcoming and safer for the growing diversity of people in our arenas.

I'm going to share this with you. It was 1970 when I came to Canada. I didn't like this new home environment. When I looked out the window, I didn't see anyone who looked like me. They didn't speak like me because all the kids on my street spoke French. But those same kids invited me to play hockey with them.

I think, in some ways, that spirit is missing in our arenas today. I think we're taking steps. I think Hockey Canada is the leader, and I think it is moving us in the right direction. I think hockey organizations around Canada are taking steps to move us in the right direction.

You know, I sit on the GTHL board of directors. I sit in the hearings. I know that when these issues come up, we have stuff in place not only to educate, but to continue to communicate to everyone that hockey is for everyone.

I think things are getting better, but we're not where we need to be yet. It's not just racism, but also the cost.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

I'm going to jump in for one last point.

If there is any information you have on sport betting that you want to submit officially to the committee—anything that you think would be valuable that we can consider in our final report—please do that.

Thank you very much. It's nice to see you, sir.

[Karl Subban]

Thank you for having me.

Our committee is preparing a longer brief for everyone.

Thank you for that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you.

Please send any information to the clerk. The clerk will pass it on to us.

I now go to Mr. Lemire for two and a half minutes, please.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you.

Ms. Auch, I'd like to hear your comments on the evolution over the past 10, 15 or 20 years, of funding structures and the will to give more space to women's sports, as well as female coaches, administrators and athletes. As things currently stand, can we conclude that the effort has been relatively successful, or rather, is it a failure? Is the funding going to the right places?

[Susan Auch]

I think the financing is going to the right place.

One challenge I had specifically was the unwillingness of our board to recommend women or BIPOC people, which was very frustrating to me. I actually spoke in a course with six of our board members about a month before I was terminated. The man—the teacher—asked me why I thought it was difficult for our board, which had seven men and one woman on it at the time, to attract diverse populations. My answer was that they don't see diversity as being as important as skills.

Why we have to choose between one and the other is beyond me. We've had great BIPOC candidates and women—Olympians—apply. Instead, the SSC board nominated a man from Colombia. Now we spend thousands of dollars bringing in this man from Colombia, rather than a former Olympian woman from Calgary.

Boards have to be held accountable. It's difficult for CEOs, who are their employees, to combat them if they truly don't want to co-operate with the funding requirements that CEOs try to co-operate with.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

How should directives be given? I'm thinking of Sport Canada in the current context and of the minister's desire to reform funding for sports federations. What actions could be taken to ensure diversity at both the board and senior management levels, so that decisions are made without sexism.

[Susan Auch]

Well, I think boards need to be held accountable to the report cards that Sport Canada judges them at.

Sport Canada didn't hold our board accountable at all. They just ignored the report card and didn't do anything about it.

That is one way to do it. You know, I—

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you. The time is up, Sébastien.

Peter Julian, you have two and a half minutes, please.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Subban, I think one recurring theme over the last year that we've been investigating when looking for recommendations around safe sport is the power that money has had in disrupting, in a very real sense, the system and not putting in place all of the elements required for safe sport. In a sense, money has flowed freely without any sorts of checks and balances.

Is this not part of your message to us, to this committee and to Canadians, that we really need safeguards? Having gambling ads, for example, helps to bring more unchecked money into the sport system without, on the other side, having the safe sport foundation in place.

[Karl Subban]

Yes. I agree with you 100%.

We need to have more checks and balances in place to monitor, for example, the volume of ads. We know what it's doing. I read somewhere that it's like we're spoon-feeding the addiction to young people because we don't have enough restrictions in place.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Yes, absolutely.

My final question to you is in relation to safe sport. Given your long and very distinguished career, are there other recommendations you can offer us on things that need to be put into place to ensure not only that athletes are safe at all times, but also that the public—as we've seen some of the horrendous allegations about Hockey Canada—is protected as well?

[Karl Subban]

Yes. The reasons are there.

In the U.K., where betting legislation has expanded since 2005, people are speaking out. From what they are saying, it's a public health disaster waiting to happen here in Canada. If people are not concerned about that, then I'm not sure where their priorities lie.

We want to restrict the volume. We don't want to see these superstars and celebrities in these ads promoting it, especially to our young people.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you, Mr. Subban. I think the time is up.

I want to thank both of you, Ms. Auch and Mr. Subban, for being witnesses at this meeting today.

We're going to suspend until we get the next panel going. Thank you very much.