Canadian Heritage Committee on June 15th, 2023

[Kirsty Duncan, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

When I served in the role.... You're right. The federal minister is responsible for our Olympic and Paralympic athletes, and the sports system is complicated in this country.

I knew that, if I wanted to change things on the ground, I had to work with ministers across the country. I called each one, one at a time, and got them onside. We had teleconferences, and by the time we got to the winter games, we were able to sign the Red Deer declaration, which is the first time in this country that all ministers committed to working on safe sport.

I believe that safe sport needs to be on every federal-provincial-territorial meeting going forward.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

That was the perfect segue to my next question.

Can you tell us more about the Red Deer accord and what was decided there?

[Kirsty Duncan, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

It took a lot of work to get all ministers committed to taking action in their provinces to end abuse, discrimination and harassment.

What I'd like to see going forward, as I said, is that this be on every federal-provincial-territorial meeting. I'd like to see the data. I would like to know.... I know when I was able to put in the telephone line, the helpline, we started getting actual data on abuse in this country.

I think we need to see that from the provinces and territories. I want to see it by sport and what it looks like for emotional, physical, psychological, sexual, verbal.... I want to know if those cases are going up or down. Are they being effectively managed? Are we measuring whether these cases are being effectively managed? Do the claimant and the defendant feel that they were treated fairly? Has this been happening over time? How many of our families, coaches and support staff are going through yearly training on safe sport?

We need all of that information.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Kevin Waugh]

Thank you.

We'll move to the Bloc for six minutes.

On video conference, we have Mr. Lemire. Welcome.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Duncan, I am very moved to have you joining us today and, especially, to hear your testimony. You have contributed greatly to the situation we know today, where there seems to be a virtually unanimous desire within the sports community. Organizations such as Own The Podium and the Canadian Olympic Committee are even in favour of launching an independent public inquiry.

During the discussions of a few months ago, we were somewhat alone in calling for an independent public inquiry, and you have advocated for it with the self-confidence that is your hallmark. I want to thank you for that.

I would like you to tell us about your experience. You were responsible for sports as the Minister of Science and Sport, and later as Minister for Sport and Persons with Disabilities. What is the greatest legacy that you have left in these roles?

[Kirsty Duncan, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Lemire.

Again, I want to thank you for your efforts. I want to thank everyone at this committee for their efforts.

I think the hardest thing, back in 2018, was literally drawing a line in the sand and starting a new conversation in this country about safe sport. This had been a taboo subject for many years. To start that conversation and to say that the days of hear no evil, see no evil were over....

I'm going to take you back to October of 2017. The #MeToo movement was making headlines around the world. In January of 2018, the U.S.A. gymnastics team's Larry Nassar received an effective life sentence after abusing over 150 gymnastics over two decades. I was appointed minister a month later. I did receive surprise that I was going to tackle safe sport. There was push-back.

As I said, I couldn't have come from the background I come from, with what I have witnessed and having spent my life protecting children, without starting that conversation. I think what your committee has done is that you have raised this conversation to the national level. I think the time is right to have this national public inquiry.

Thank you, Mr. Lemire.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

I would like to ask you the following question.

If you were still Minister of Sport, you could have launched the independent public inquiry. The violation of human rights and the imbalance of power, including the toxic culture in sports federations, are subjects you are familiar with.

Why did you not launch an independent public inquiry while you were minister?

[Kirsty Duncan, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

Thank you for the question. It's an important question to ask.

I had one goal, which was to put in as many protections as I could in the time available to me. When I came in, we started at needing to have a policy and needing to have a third party investigator. We were starting from zero.

I was literally building the start of a safe sport system. We've made progress. We have many kilometres to go to build that safe sport system in this country. That's why that inquiry is going to be so important. I think it's really the next step.

My job was to put in the protections. When I looked at what happened in the United States, I knew that should have provoked a national conversation on numerous sports. It didn't happen. It looked like it was always going to be a sport-by-sport reckoning. My job was to put in place those protections.

We're at the right place. It's the right moment in time now for that inquiry. Let's not fail our children.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

I cannot help but draw a parallel. At the time, there was obviously a difficult situation with Minister Jody Wilson-Raybould. We could tell that the Prime Minister's Office was putting pressure on certain ministers to keep them in line, if I may use that expression.

Can we assume that this was the situation in your case, as well? Were you pressured by the PMO to talk about and promote a certain sport or to focus on the positive aspect of sport, rather than to dig deep, and go where it was painful, but necessary to go in order to protect children, which is the cause you have dedicated your life to?

[Kirsty Duncan, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

When I came in, in 2018, there was no mandate for safe sport.

I chose to do this. I chose to do this, because as much as I love sport.... I live sport. It's where I come from. It's where I get to twist and somersault through the air, and it's where I get to marvel at the talent, commitment and dedication of our athletes. But I also know a darker side, so I was determined that I would work on this.

It was not always easy. I was lucky to have someone from outside of government who was very committed to safe sport. When I went to Korea for the Olympics about two weeks after being appointed and I was asked what I wanted to do and I said, “safe sport”, from officials there was surprise. I sort of took us through it. We've had #MeToo. We've seen Larry Nassar. I'm a former gymnast. I know this world, but there was surprise and there was push-back.

As I said, there was also push-back from some corners of the sport community. I think, again, that this is why the inquiry really matters. We have to shine a light on the darkest recesses of the sport system if we're going to make change, and the only way to do this is through an inquiry.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you, Ms. Duncan.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Kevin Waugh]

Thank you, Mr. Lemire.

As we know, we have 30-minute bells, so we have some time yet.

Is it okay for the committee to continue with Mr. Julian, and then we'll hear maybe closing comments from Ms. Duncan?

Go ahead, Michael.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

It is 4:45 right now. If there are 30 minutes to the bells and then there's obviously a 20-minute period. We're not going to get to the second round. Is that correct?

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Kevin Waugh]

I'm hoping to get to some of it.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Is it a hard stop at 5:30?

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Kevin Waugh]

No. We don't have a hard stop at 5:30. We actually have a stop at six, if it's the will of the committee.

What about you guys on video conference?

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

If the witnesses for the second panel can stay, I'm fine to go to six.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Kevin Waugh]

That's good.

Go ahead, Ms. Thomas.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

I'm sorry, Chair, but just on that note, if I have this figured out correctly, we're going to have to vote at approximately 5:15. With the voting process, the earliest that this committee would be able to come back would be 5:35, which would then leave us with 25 minutes for that second panel. They would each have five minutes for opening remarks, which would leave us with a total of maybe seven to 10 minutes maximum to ask questions.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

That's assuming that we get here at 5:35. It could be 5:40.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Kevin Waugh]

Yes.

Go ahead, Mr. Julian.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

We could agree by unanimous consent to vote by app. In that case, we'd have a five-minute recess.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

If we have 25 minutes left, I would suggest that maybe we finish our final round with Kirsty Duncan and then allow her to do closing remarks, should you wish, Chair. We then perhaps allow our next panel, because I believe they're ready to go.... Why don't we allow them to do their opening statements and then go to vote? That's unless, of course, we could have unanimous consent from the committee right now that we agree to vote electronically, which I would be totally fine with.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Kevin Waugh]

That's fine. Is that good?