Canadian Heritage Committee on June 19th, 2023

[Judge Rosemarie Aquilina]

I've been a judge going on 20 years in January. I have done that in every single case. I always listen to everyone in the case because of that backstory. It's similar to what I'm asking all of you to do. The backstory is really what drives my decision.

When I learned about the Larry Nassar case, I didn't know the athletes, and I didn't know him. When I learned about it, I decided that everybody who was affected by him—not just the survivors but everybody—could testify so that I would be informed and would be able to make a decision based on what happened.

Also, with the healing effect of victims who testify—sometimes it's even families of defendants who testify in front of me—that healing that happens doesn't happen anywhere else. That's also why I talk to victims and tell them “You matter” and “You're a hero” and all of that. It's the power of robe, and I think that is what we're all responsible for—to serve the public in many ways. I am not a therapist or a healer, but I do listen, and I want them to know it's their courtroom and it's their moment. I've heard them, and I will take the appropriate action.

I listened for seven days. I would have listened for seven months if that's what it took. That backstory is important. It also tells the story of how we go forward. I didn't know the whole world would listen and we'd still be talking about it five years later, but I handled it no differently than any other case. That backstory is a teachable moment each and every time, and it does heal people when they tell their stories and when they have their moments.

I'm asking you, here, to listen to the athletes, and to heal them and to give them their moment.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Right. I'm sure you are aware that our sport minister has said that we will be having some sort of national inquiry into safe sport in this country. I think, at this point, it's more about how it will look and about who will lead it. I think the work we've been doing at this committee will really inform that inquiry.

I have a quick question. You said that the United States hasn't done an inquiry on safe sport, and other countries haven't done that. Do you think that, if we lead in this, other countries would follow suit? What do you think some of the recommendations should be to inform such an inquiry?

[Judge Rosemarie Aquilina]

Absolutely. Other countries will follow suit, if only because they are shamed into doing the right thing. I think you are doing the right thing. You could be the leader and—similar to what, unknowingly, I did with Nassar—catapult the whole world into doing the right thing. Part of your inquiry should be what I did with Nassar: just listen, take notes, ask questions, and make a safe space for victims to listen and speak their truth. It is their truth; it is not yours. It is theirs, whatever they have to say. Take what they say, and use those as teachable moments, and ask, “How did we get here? How can we fix this?” Ask them.

When you do this inquiry, you will be as surprised as the world was with how Larry Nassar happened. You'll be surprised, and the fixes will come forward very clearly and loudly to you. You will become the leader in the world.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

You said that Canada and the U.S. should talk about things. If things are happening, we should talk about it. Can you expand on that a bit more? Do you think other countries and the U.S. are watching the Canadian Parliament to see what we're doing here?

[Judge Rosemarie Aquilina]

I can't speak for any other legislators. I can tell you that I'm watching. I know athletes are watching, and parents are watching.

Canada and the United States.... I have family here. We are not so different. We may have borders, but I always feel that Canada is also part of my home. I don't think Canada and the United States are that different. We should partner together and show the world. If you're the leader, the United States will hop on board your train and say, “Thanks for doing it. How can we help? How can we join?” At least that's what I hope our government would do.

The United States, like Canada, has always had a welcoming, open-arms policy to help and to be there. As I said in my opening remarks, Canada helps during a crisis, and so does the United States. We partner in that. Why don't we partner together for safety in sports, protect children and be their voice? You can be the leader, and the United States will join in.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

All right. We'll hold you to that, Judge.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you.

I would like to go now to Sébastien Lemire.

Sébastien, you have two and a half minutes, please.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Judge Aquilina. Your passion is so powerful. You want to give our children a future, and I thank you for that.

I would like to ask you a specific question, drawing on your expertise. One of the problems in sport, especially at the international level, is how Olympic committees and other sport organizations operate. There are a lot of conflicts of interest, people protect themselves, the machine protects itself, and the reputation of the sport and individuals takes precedence over that of the athletes.

Can you tell us more about this?

What mechanisms could help us stop the way the machine protects itself?

[Judge Rosemarie Aquilina]

First of all, if you have rules in place, the reporting and all the safety and training, that is a good start, but when you take the money out of it and put safety first, you will get better outcomes with your athletes. You will also really be the leader. We have to take the money out: safety first, and then the money and the medals. You have to flip that script. Without that, you have not made any changes. You're just doing rhetoric, talking and having more meetings.

Meetings don't matter; change does. Take the money out. Protect the athletes, and the money and medals will come. The performance will be better. These athletes will outperform. What you think today is fantastic, they will outperform.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

I agree with you. I have the same values.

I would like to hear your thoughts on one of the recommendations that has come up several times in our work: taking sports out of Canadian Heritage. Grants are currently provided on the basis of performance and the pursuit of gold medals. Would moving sports to Health Canada not be part of the long-term solution?

Health Canada could promote healthy lifestyles and make sports safe and accessible for our children. That would enable us to focus on infrastructures.

What do you think?

[Judge Rosemarie Aquilina]

When it's safe, the money and medals will come. There's just no question. The parents will bring their athletes. The athletes will want to perform. They'll be safe. They'll be free to be who they are. Science has proven that when there is safety, when there is positive coaching, you're going to have super athletes.

What's going on now? They'll perform, because there's a bit of money and a bit of fame. They all want those little moments, but you're going to have a lot of moments, a lot of performance, and you will be the best that you can be. Flip the script and put safety first. The rest will come.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you so much, Judge.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you.

Now I will go to Peter Julian.

Peter, you have two and a half minutes, please.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thanks, Madam Chair.

You spoke about the fear of retaliation. You also mentioned in your introduction the use of non-disclosure agreements. In a sense, those are two sides of the same coin. Fear of retaliation leads people potentially not to speak out, for the reasons you very eloquently described, that sometimes—often—it means the kids are punished. The athletes are punished rather than the perpetrators.

In Canada, we have seen a number of cases where national sport organizations have used non-disclosure agreements to muzzle the victims after the fact, so there's fear of retaliation before they speak out. They raise concerns, and then they are muzzled permanently by a legal framework that does not allow them to speak their truth.

To what extent have you seen that in the United States? Are practices starting to change where there's an understanding that non-disclosure agreements are muzzling victims rather than helping them?

[Judge Rosemarie Aquilina]

Yes, the practice is starting to change. People are speaking out and saying, “We're not going to sign an NDA.” The problem isn't just silencing the victim—that is a huge problem—but also protecting the abuser, because when you have an NDA, all you're doing is saying, “Yes, you were abused, but now we're going to keep that coach. We're going to keep that doctor. We're going to keep that person in place because no one's going to know about it.” All that the NDAs do—and that's the conversation in the United States—is protect the abuser, so NDAs have to go away.

We need to protect whistle-blowers. We need to protect those people who report. Stop the fear and start putting the fear in the abusers. Let them get help. Let them walk out into a different career. Let them do something else. Let's punish them, but let's stop the fear in the athletes. They are your assets. Why are they in fear?

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you.

You spoke eloquently about the balance of power.

I have only a few seconds left.

Are there any other recommendations you can give to us that will help establish that balance of power in Canada so that athletes and the public are protected from abusers and perpetrators? It's been a system that has worked for the abusers up until now. We need a system that works to prevent victims.

[Judge Rosemarie Aquilina]

There should be no ban on parents being there. The parents have the constitutionally protected right over the child, not the coach, and when parents are banned, then the child loses their voice, and now it's the coach's voice. That is an imbalance of power right there, and that should never legally happen, ever. Why is a parent banned? Why am I banned from my child in the name of sports?

You should have a therapist, like a camp counsellor or a school counsellor, who is there so that a child can feel safe going to them and is not questioned, “Why did you go see the counsellor?” Just do the daily mental health checks. We have children and adults who are suicidal, who are cutting or addicted. There are all sorts of things due to this trauma, so what we need is that early intervention to make sure that they are safe, that we can rebalance the power and that there is no fear, but rather there is safety, and the fear is in the coach.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you.

I will now go to the Conservatives.

Mr. Shields, you have five minutes, please.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'll be splitting my time with Mr. Martel.

Thank you for being here today; it is appreciated.

You talked about NDAs. Has there been success anywhere in the U.S. in eliminating those? Are you familiar with them being eliminated at all?

[Judge Rosemarie Aquilina]

No, because in the United States people are free to contract, so, with the freedom to contract, people are free to enter into an NDA, but there is a lot more conversation saying, “You don't have to do that. You don't have to settle for this. Make it part of the deal that there will not be an NDA signed, or there's no deal, and you will go to court, go to the media and go public.”

We find more resolution that is palatable and that is safe when you do not sign an NDA. When you sign an NDA, you are keeping abuse silent, and we cannot stand for that in any country.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

We've talked about a registry in the sense that that's the biggest challenge. Is there any success in a registry being built anywhere state-wise or organization-wise in the U.S.?

[Judge Rosemarie Aquilina]

Not that I'm aware of. When there is an abusive coach, there should be some kind of registry. There isn't, but that needs to happen—not a public registry, but there should be a registry so that a coach can't move from gym to gym or state to state. That is being talked about, and there is sort of an undercurrent of that, but officially, no.

Should there be? Absolutely. We have sex offender registries. Why don't we have coaches who are on registries when they abuse children? Unless they're on the sex offender registry, there is no registry, but we should have a registry of coaches who are abusive.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

Thank you.

You talked about organizations starting over. Do you have any examples where organizations have said, “Let's start over. We need to redo this totally and rebrand”?

[Judge Rosemarie Aquilina]

Of course not. Nobody wants to start over when there's money involved. Take the money out of it and put the safety in, and the money and medals will come.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

Thank you.

Go ahead, Mr. Martel.