Canadian Heritage Committee on Sept. 28th, 2023

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mr. Aldag and Madam Senator, thank you for being with us today to discuss Bill S‑202.

I don't have many questions. I think this bill is very relevant and will be welcomed without any problems. We want to make sure that Parliament contributes to the promotion of arts and culture in general.

I'd like to ask a quick question about the second point of the bill, namely, artist selection, and the francophone fact, of course.

We want to make a lot of room for Canadian diversity, but we sometimes forget how important it is to protect the French language. In some organizations, there is a tradition of respecting the principle of alternating between a francophone and an anglophone in certain positions. This is a practice, not a rule or obligation. Generally speaking, the principle is fairly well respected. I'm afraid that by opening up the process even more to Canadian diversity—and I have nothing against that—we're somewhat eliminating the importance of also highlighting francophones in this process.

My question is for my two colleagues, Senator Bovey and Mr. Aldag.

Do you think it would be possible to add a specific mention in Bill S-202 regarding French and the importance that French should have in selecting candidates for the position of visual artist?

What do you think, Madam Senator?

[Patricia Bovey]

I think it's a good idea. Moreover, Jean‑François Bélisle, the director of the National Gallery of Canada, is francophone.

The chair of the Canada Council for the Arts is of course an indigenous writer now, and I think you're absolutely right that the selection should be respectful of the diversity of this country linguistically and culturally. I also feel that the opportunity for people to apply should be open to all.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Thank you.

I'd like to ask another question. However, I'm not passing judgment.

It seems to me that while there may be a lot of goodwill in the creation of these positions, there really isn't an obligation, as far as I know.

The position of poet laureate was mentioned earlier. I'm convinced that works have been produced by poets laureate. They are expected to produce works or promote art, but there is no obligation to produce results, and it will probably be the same for the parliamentary visual artist laureate. There is no indication of what is actually expected in terms of the production of works by the people who will occupy those positions.

Don't you think they should be told that during a two-year term, for example, they're expected to propose two or three works that can be permanently installed to promote arts and culture?

Shouldn't we specify something like this in our expectations of such an appointment?

[John Aldag]

Maybe the senator could start off. This is her field. I can speak to some of my experience within the museums and arts settings after, but it might be beneficial to hear from the senator first.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

What do you think, Senator Bovey?

[Patricia Bovey]

I certainly appreciate where you're coming from.

I think it's hard to quantify in advance that a person should do one, two or five pieces, because we don't know what discipline they're going to be working in. I think the bill does state they are to “produce or cause to be produced artistic creations” and support and “sponsor artistic events”. It's clear that work is to be produced.

I have worked with the poet laureates in my years in the Senate, and they produced amazing work and have done some for me. George Elliott Clarke wrote a poem in support of this bill.

I have no difficulty with saying, “Yes, work must be produced”, but I do have difficulty quantifying it, because we don't know if they're going to do many drawings or they're going to do one big film. I think we have to be very careful not to quantify what somebody can do with the discipline that they work in.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Thank you, Madam Senator. You raise an excellent point.

It's true that we can't ask for 14 giant sculptures of public figures be made within a two-year mandate. I fully agree that this should be framed a little more realistically.

I have only one concern. If I were to propose an amendment at a later date, it would be to ensure that French is properly protected as part of the selection criteria for the visual artist laureate.

Thank you. I'm finished, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

You have finished your questions. You have one minute and 20 seconds left, Martin, but it's okay. That's great.

We shall go to the New Democrats for six minutes.

Go ahead, Mr. Peter Julian.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

It would be seven minutes and 20 seconds, Madame Chair—

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

—because we work co-operatively. My time is your time, and their time is my time.

I appreciate our witnesses' being here.

I want to give notice of motion of an amendment to Mrs. Thomas's notice of motion. I'm glad she raised this issue. I was concerned as well about what was happening with the Peel District School Board.

The Toronto Star indicated that the chair of the Peel District School Board cited inexperienced staff rushing to execute a directive from the education ministry itself in Ontario. The board chair said, “does the minister really know the directive that was put in front of the board?”

My notice of amendment would be, if the committee chooses to examine this issue, that we convene the Minister of Education in Ontario. We've seen a lot of chaos in Ontario schools and in Ontario school libraries. I think that, if we choose to investigate this subject—and I think there may be reason to do so—it would be very important to have the Minister of Education come forward and explain how it is that this government in Ontario has caused this chaos within school libraries, which are such an important source of information for students and young people in Ontario. That's my notice.

I will now move on to our terrific witnesses. I appreciate their being here.

[An hon. member]

Chair, can I ask a question about the notice? Is that possible?

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

We're not discussing the motion right now. It's just a notice of motion. We have 48 hours to look at it.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Being a neighbour of the riding of New Westminster—Burnaby, Mr. Aldag knows fully well that New Westminster—Burnaby is the most diverse riding in the country. There are over 150 languages.

You cited in your introductory comments the importance of multiculturalism and that mosaic. We feel it keenly in New Westminster—Burnaby, where English and French, of course, are very present but so are numerous indigenous languages. Really, the diaspora of the world comes to New Westminster—Burnaby.

I want to ask you a pointed question, but it's also in the spirit of supporting the bill.

How do we reflect that kind of multiculturalism, that incredibly broad presence of the world in communities in Canada, through one position, a visual arts laureate for the Parliament of Canada? How can we ensure that multiculturalism is reflected?

[John Aldag]

It's a very fair question.

I think the important consideration here is that this position would become part of the institution of Parliament and would be here for the long term. Having that longevity, that permanence, would allow the arts from various aspects of current Canadian culture, including all of the world that has come to call this place home, to be reflected over time.

I don't think it's realistic to have every culture, every art form, presented, showcased or highlighted in a one-year or probably even a two-year term. It's about having the position carry on over time to showcase various aspects. As the senator said, art is often a reflection of the discussions, the conversations and sometimes the turmoil that are happening in society at any given moment, so this position would be able to reflect whatever was happening in Canadian society at the time.

To your point, I don't think it would be realistic to expect it to do all of those things at once, but to look at what's happening in society and what the relevant conversations are and how to reflect those things in art would probably be a realistic expectation.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Mr. Julian, you have two minutes left. Would you like the senator to weigh in, or would you like to ask another question?

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

I have another question.

That went by remarkably fast, Madam Chair. Seven minutes and 20 seconds and we're down to two? I don't understand.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

You had six minutes, Mr. Julian.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

My next question is along the same lines as Mr. Champoux's, and it's for Senator Bovey.

There's a bilingual presence in the country. The francophone community in British Columbia is growing every year. There are more and more francophones in the province. The vitality of francophone communities is evident across the country.

How can we ensure that this linguistic reality, this presence of Canada's francophone communities, is reflected in the position of the parliamentary visual artist laureate?

[Patricia Bovey]

Sir, if I may, I lived and worked in British Columbia for 20 years as director of the Art Gallery of Greater Victoria, and I did a lot of work in the British Columbian francophone community and have worked with artists of all disciplines and all diversities.

I think you'll find that the work of francophone artists in British Columbia is strong and there's a very real parallel with much of the work that's being done in the province of Quebec. I have to say that I, sitting here, am not worried about this becoming a matter of provincial delineations.

The way it's established, with the Canada Council representing somebody on the search committee, the Royal Canadian Academy of Arts, the National Gallery and official languages, I think we have the stopgap measures to ensure there's a fairness in approach for those people who apply.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you.

You have five seconds, Mr. Julian.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thanks to both of you.

[Patricia Bovey]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

We're now going to move to the second round, which is a five-minute round, and we'll begin with Ms. Marilyn Gladu of the Conservative Party for five minutes.

Thank you, Marilyn.

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Welcome to MP Aldag and the senator.

Our committee has just been through an exercise that many of the legislators are going through in terms of trying to make sure we reflect digital progress. We had Bill C-11 and Bill C-18, and you see the competition bill, the digital bill and everything else coming before the House.

In this description of “arts”, I think one of the things that might be missing is digital arts and things like animation. We talked about online creators and everything. Would you be open to an amendment that would add digital art so that we can make sure that it's good not just now but as we progress in the future?