Evidence of meeting #91 for Canadian Heritage in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was chair.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Heather Lank  Parliamentary Librarian
Richard Davis  Director, Arts Policy & Federal-Provincial-Territorial Culture and Heritage Secretariat, Department of Canadian Heritage
Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Geneviève Desjardins

9 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

All right.

The discussion on this motion is suspended.

We have some time left, and we can now deal with Mrs. Thomas's motion, which on the table. For those of you who have forgotten what it is, I'll quickly read it:

That the committee immediately undertake 4 hearings on the government's decision to force social media services and podcasts to register with the government's Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission (CRTC), and that the committee hears from: the Minister of Canadian Heritage for 2 hours, the Chairperson and Chief Executive Officer of the CRTC, the Deputy Minister of Canadian Heritage and impacted stakeholders, including podcast hosts and other witnesses deemed relevant by the committee, and that the committee report to the House.

Mrs. Thomas spoke to her motion earlier on, so we're ready to discuss it.

Ms. Gladu.

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

Marilyn Gladu Conservative Sarnia—Lambton, ON

Thank you, Chair.

Yes, I support the motion obviously, but we've been trying to get the head of the CRTC here since, I think, February 2022. She's been in the job a long time. A lot of changes are taking place there, and I think the committee really needs to understand what those are.

Certainly the Minister of Canadian Heritage.... We haven't seen mandate letters go out to her yet, so I'm interested to know what she is intending to do. Is it a holding pattern, or what is she tasked with? I think these are good things that the committee needs to know about.

9:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

Thank you.

Peter Julian.

9:05 a.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP New Westminster—Burnaby, BC

Thanks very much, Madam Chair.

I think, ironically, to about a year and a half ago when the CRTC chair was invited by this committee, came to committee and then was unable to be questioned because of the filibuster the Conservatives started, which lasted through the entire meeting. The CRTC came. I was anxious to ask questions—we all have questions for the CRTC—and the Conservatives blocked it. It's ironic, to say the least, that after blocking the CRTC, filibustering out the CRTC so that members of this committee could not ask questions, now the Conservatives are saying, “Let's bring in the CRTC.”

I certainly agree with that. I don't agree with, as always, the steroid-laden motions the Conservatives bring forward, but the idea that we hear from the minister, I think we've already made the invitation. You may have an update on that, Madam Chair, and I think that would be helpful.

9:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

I'm asking the clerk if we heard back from the ministers. We have not heard back.

9:05 a.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP New Westminster—Burnaby, BC

You have not. That is concerning to me, then. I believe the minister has to come before committee immediately. I certainly agree with the CRTC coming before this committee. I would undertake, and I hope all parties would agree, that we are not going to filibuster so the CRTC can testify and can answer questions. If we have an agreement among all four parties not to do that, then we can actually have a very productive time with the CRTC, unlike the last time they were invited when they were blocked from testifying and blocked from answering questions.

The motion itself.... It's a tort. I understand the political reasons for that. If what the Conservatives are actually looking for is that the CRTC come and that the Minister of Canadian Heritage come, I certainly agree with that, but I think we already had that in the framework of the invitation being extended.

I think, Madam Chair, you really have to press the minister. The minister has to come as soon as possible. I think that's something we would all agree to.

9:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

Mr. Julian, as you well know, the minister will come when the minister has the opening to be able to come, because ministers have a ton of other appointments and things to do. The letter was sent. I think you will probably hear from the ministers soon because they're trying to organize their schedules, so I'm hoping we will get an answer from the ministers very soon. We asked two ministers to come: the sport minister as well as this one. Specific to the heritage minister, I'm hoping we can get a response from the heritage minister.

Ms. Hepfner.

October 5th, 2023 / 9:05 a.m.

Liberal

Lisa Hepfner Liberal Hamilton Mountain, ON

Thank you, Chair.

I won't take the committee's time. I agree we should hear from the CRTC and from the minister, but I think the rest of this motion is just an attempt to relitigate Bill C-11, which has already been passed by this committee.

I'll leave it at that.

9:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

Thank you.

Mr. Champoux.

9:05 a.m.

Bloc

Martin Champoux Bloc Drummond, QC

We already discussed this last week, Madam Chair.

I think we had agreed not to make the ministers' visit an emergency, given that there were no new mandate letters or particularly urgent matters. So it would be perfectly convenient to receive them when they are available. The invitation has already been extended.

I think this motion just seeks to add something that already exists.

9:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

That's always been the tradition: The ministers will come when they're available. I don't think we've changed anything with regard to that.

Go ahead, Mr. Viersen.

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

Arnold Viersen Conservative Peace River—Westlock, AB

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I would like to support my colleague's motion as well.

I would note that, if you go back to Hansard and my debates around Bill C-11, I repeatedly asked the government why it was trying to make podcasts live in the same world as, say, a radio station. I was assured at that time it was indeed not the case, and the government was definitely not doing that, yet we have reports in the media this week that now the government is expecting podcasts to register...or the CRTC is expecting that podcasts would register with it.

I think it would be imperative for this committee to study it or to ask the questions, anyway, of the department, of the CRTC and of the minister: What's suddenly changed, and why are we all of a sudden asking podcasts to register when we were assured that, when Bill C-11 passed, this would never happen and that this was not the government trying to impose radio station and CanCon requirements on podcasts? That was definitely something we were assured of at the time.

Believe me, Madam Chair, I did not believe the government when it said that. You always say that you hate to say “I told you so”, and now we're here saying, “I told you so”. I think it's important that this committee study this. I think it should be sooner rather than later. I would hope we can pass this motion this morning, for sure, and get the minister here tomorrow and the CRTC next week forthwith.

9:10 a.m.

An hon. member

Maybe not tomorrow....

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

Arnold Viersen Conservative Peace River—Westlock, AB

Maybe not tomorrow, but it's rhetorical meaning is to say “as soon as possible”.

I do believe, Madam Chair, we could, as a committee, send stronger messages to the ministers requiring them to show up. The role of committees is to hold the government to account. The role of committees is to ensure the government is doing the things the government says it's going to do. This really seems very much like an area where the government assured us, just a year ago, that what is taking place in the podcast world was definitely something that would not happen. I hope we can pass this right away and get the minister here.

Thanks.

9:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

Having listened to all those who had hands up, I think we should call the question on this motion.

Mrs. Thomas.

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

I would ask, for clarification, that the motion be read into the record and that it be a recorded vote.

9:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

I actually read it earlier on, but I will read it again. The motion is:

That the committee immediately undertake 4 hearings on the government's decision to force social media services and podcasts to register with the government's Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission (CRTC), and that the committee hears from: the Minister of Canadian Heritage for 2 hours, the Chairperson and Chief Executive Officer of the CRTC, the Deputy Minister of Canadian Heritage and impacted stakeholders, including podcast hosts and other witnesses deemed relevant by the committee....

(Motion negatived: nays 7; yeas 4)

9:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

I'm hoping somebody could ask to suspend, so we can move into the next session of our work agenda, which is Bill S-202.

Marilyn.

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

Marilyn Gladu Conservative Sarnia—Lambton, ON

I move to suspend.

9:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

This meeting is suspended.

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

I just wanted to remind everyone about what happens when we do clause-by-clause. I'm going to provide you with a few comments on how the committee should proceed.

As the name indicates, this is an examination of all the clauses in the order in which they appear in the bill. I will call each clause successively and each clause is subject to debate and a vote. If there are amendments to the clauses in question, I will recognize the members proposing them, who may explain them. The amendment will then be open for debate. When no further members wish to intervene, the amendment will be voted on.

Amendments will be considered in the order in which they appear in the bill or in the package that each member received from the clerk. Members should note that amendments must be submitted in writing to the clerk of the committee. I will go slowly to allow all members to follow the proceedings properly.

Amendments have been given an alphanumeric number—in the top right-hand corner of your notes in the amendments—to indicate which party submitted them. There is no need for a seconder to move an amendment. Once moved, we will need unanimous consent to withdraw it.

During debate on an amendment, members are permitted to move subamendments. These subamendments must be submitted in writing. They do not require the approval of the mover of the amendment. Only one subamendment may be considered at a time, and that subamendment cannot be amended. When a subamendment is moved to an amendment, it is voted on first. Another subamendment may then be moved, or the committee may consider the main amendment and vote on it.

Once every clause has been voted on, the committee will vote on the title of the bill and the bill itself. Finally, the committee will have to order the chair to report the bill to the House. That report contains only the text of any adopted amendments, as well as an indication of any deleted clauses.

We shall begin. I want to note that we have some witnesses who are here to answer any technical questions. From the Department of Canadian Heritage, we have Richard Davis, director, arts policy and federal-provincial-territorial culture and heritage secretariat. That's a mouthful. From the Library of Parliament, we have Heather P. Lank, parliamentary librarian, office of the parliamentary librarian.

We have, of course, the legislative clerk sitting here, who will walk us through this if there are any problems. It seems to me to be pretty simple. It's a short bill, and we have two amendments.

I will begin by calling clause 1, and I would ask the Bloc Québécois member, Mr. Champoux, to move the amendment as indicated, BQ-1.

(On clause 1)

9:25 a.m.

Bloc

Martin Champoux Bloc Drummond, QC

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Actually, we had discussed this a bit at the last meeting when we talked about Bill S‑202.

I had expressed the wish that a more precise place be given to the two official languages and that...

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

Is there any interpretation?

9:25 a.m.

Some hon. members

Yes.

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

I'm not hearing it. Is there something wrong with my audio system? Oh, it was pulled out a little bit.

Go ahead, Martin. I'm sorry for the interruption.