Canadian Heritage Committee on Oct. 19th, 2023

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

I wrote down the word as she used it and I think the record stands. People are seeing in the committee what she said and how I've responded.

There is a fundamental problem of disinformation. I think CBC endeavours to show the highest journalistic standards. I think it's important that we do bring both the CBC ombudsman and the director of journalistic standards before committee. As Mr. Champoux mentioned, it's important in a difficult, troubling time like this to have the CBC respond to us and answer those important questions, but there are broader concerns about rampant disinformation, and they don't come from the CBC. They come from the Meta corporation.

As you know, Madam Chair, both the European community and American lawmakers have cited Meta for rampant disinformation around the Israel-Hamas conflict. It is incumbent on us, I think, to subpoena Meta and bring Rachel Curran here to answer those questions.

I'll quote the following for the record before I offer my amendments.

U.S. Senator Michael Bennet has said in referring to Meta—and, of course, Google and X or Twitter—“In many cases, your platforms’ algorithms have amplified this content, contributing to a dangerous cycle of outrage, engagement, and redistribution.” The senator's comments and those from from U.S. lawmakers come after European Union industry chief Thierry Breton blasted those same companies, Meta particularly, demanding that they take stricter steps to battle disinformation amid the escalating conflict. What we have is the European Union and U.S. lawmakers bringing bearing down on Meta particularly. As we know, the EU has issued warnings demanding that Meta do something to combat illegal content and disinformation. If not, they could potentially face harsh regulatory penalties.

Madam Chair, that disinformation causes profound concerns. The reality is that both Meta and Google, as the parliamentary library and the Parliamentary Budget Officer have revealed, receive over a billion dollars in indirect taxpayer subsidies every year. The federal government pays the companies in order to advertise on Meta and Google. They have a public responsibility with that massive indirect subsidy that comes from taxpayers to combat disinformation.

What I offer as an amendment to the motion is the following.

The first paragraph would read as written, the second paragraph would read as written, the third bullet point would be replaced entirely by “That both the European Union and U.S. lawmakers have raised concerns about false and misleading content about the Israel-Hamas conflict being spread on Meta platforms”. The fourth bullet point would be amended in the following way: “The CBC receives $1.4 billion in public funding, and Meta and Google receive over $1 billion in indirect subsidies annually”, and then it would read “through taxpayer dollars annually, and that this committee has a mandate to review Government expenditures”.

Then, the (a) and (b) of “The Committee” would be replaced with “That the Committee subpoena Rachel Curran, head of public policy of Meta Canada, to come before the Committee”, and then (c) and (d) would read in the following way: “Invite the CBC Director of Journalistic Standards, George Achi, and the CBC ombudsman, Mr. Jack Nagler, to appear before the committee to address the CBC's position on Journalistic Standards and Practices”.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Now we have a very long amendment, and we have to deal with the amendment. There is no more discussion on the motion. We are into the amendment now.

I'm going to ask the clerk to read it for me, or if Peter has it in writing, I can read it out.

Mr. Julian, would you like to read it slowly so that we can note the places where the amendment is going to occur?

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

The first bullet point stands. The second bullet point stands. The third bullet point would be replaced and would read, “That both the European Union and U.S. lawmakers have raised concerns about false and misleading content about the Israel-Hamas conflict being spread on Meta platforms.”

The fourth bullet point would read, “The CBC receives $1.4 billion in public funding and that Meta and Google receive over $1 billion in indirect subsidies through taxpayer dollars annually, and that this committee has a mandate to review government expenditures”, and then, “The committee (a) subpoena Rachel Curran, head of public policy, Meta Canada, to come before the committee”.

The new (b) would read, “Invite CBC Director of Journalistic Standards George Achi and CBC ombudsman Mr. Jack Nagler to appear before the committee to address the CBC's position on journalistic standards and practices.”

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you.

We're on the amendment.

Ms. Gladu...?

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

I have two things.

First of all, Lisa Hepfner has her hand up and has had her hand up for a while. I don't know if she wants to speak to it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Ms. Hepfner had her hand up on the motion. We're dealing with the amendment.

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Okay. I want to speak to the amendment, if that's okay.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Martin, your hand was up for the amendment. Go ahead.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

It's a point of order.

For an amendment this long, I need a hard copy. We're just hearing it verbally. I need it in a hard copy.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Then let's recess for five minutes and get it printed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Do you have the hard copy now, Clerk?

What we will do is suspend until the clerk produces a hard copy. The committee is suspended.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

We are resuming the meeting.

Peter, you had the floor.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I think this is something that—

[An hon. member]

On a point of order—

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

I have a point of order.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

You have a point of order?

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Yes, it's either one us. We're on the same point of order.

I think Martin asked for a hard copy. We were going to get a hard copy.

[A voice]

I can print that.

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Thanks.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Do you want to stay suspended until we get the hard copy?

[Some hon. members]

Yes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Okay.

We are suspended.

[The meeting was suspended at 10:03 a.m., Thursday, October 19]

[The meeting resumed at 11:04 a.m., Thursday, October 24]

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Good morning, everyone. We will now resume the meeting and continue meeting number 93 of the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage, which was suspended last Thursday.

I would like to acknowledge that this meeting is taking place on the traditional unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe nation.

This meeting is taking place in a hybrid format. Pursuant to the Standing Orders, members are attending in person in the room and remotely by using the Zoom application. I don't think we have anyone using Zoom today.

While public health authorities and the Board of Internal Economy do not require mask-wearing indoors or in the precinct, masks and respirators are still excellent tools to prevent the spread of COVID-19 and other respiratory diseases. I'm encouraging their use, strongly.

I want to take this opportunity to remind all participants in this meeting that screenshots and taking photos of your screen are not permitted. I also remind you that this room is equipped with a powerful audio system, and feedback can occur. It does harm to the hearing of the interpreters, so please try to be careful not to have things sitting next to the microphone, as this can cause feedback.

We're resuming debate on the amendment of Peter Julian, which is an amendment moved by him on the original motion from Rachael Thomas.

Now, Peter, you have the floor.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I tabled the amendment raising concerns about Meta's role. This is the role of Meta in disinformation. It's been flagged in the European Union and the United States. Meta has simply been appallingly bad in promoting disinformation and stoking, I would suggest, an amplification of hate.

I offered that amendment to subpoena Rachel Curran, who is head of public policy for Meta Canada, because of Meta's appalling role in disinformation. Subsequent to this, two other factors have come to mind.

First, we have a role to look at the CBC and its mandate. I understand that the president of the CBC, Catherine Tait, is coming before us on November 2. It's kind of superfluous to look into the CBC or have a motion on the CBC when they are already scheduled to appear in front of this committee.

Second, Madam Chair, I want to bring to your attention and the committee's attention an extraordinary piece of investigative reporting that appeared just this past weekend. It's by Jesse Brown and Karyn Pugliese from Canadaland. These are two very effective journalists. They went into what they saw as a major source of disinformation. The heading of the article was the “The anti-Trudeau hate farm based out of Cairo”. This is a major source of disinformation in Canada.

The YouTube channel called Street Politics Canada, since April 2022, has published approximately 600 YouTube videos catering to an audience of Canadian conservatives. In the last 12 months, their videos have received more than 10 million views. Jesse Brown and Karyn Pugliese looked into this and showed real investigative reporting. It would be great to see Postmedia, which is heavily subsidized, actually do some investigative reporting.

It turns out that the journalists found that Street Politics Canada is actually run out of Egypt, specifically from the 11th floor office of a company called Geek Labs in the Cairo neighbourhood of Degla. The former Street Politics social media manager conceded that if they told people they were Egyptians talking in Canada, the company would not get the success that it has had.

This is a major source of misinformation. The social media manager goes on to say, “We knew that our audience were the conservatives in Canada.” I certainly hope that the member for Carleton and Conservative MPs are not re-tweeting, or amplifying, this blatant disinformation that is foreign-based foreign interference. I find it appalling that this has played such a key role in the Conservatives' infrastructure.

The amendment that I offered is to look into the disinformation that we're seeing on Meta. It's fair to say that there's a broader problem of disinformation writ large. That is something that would be entirely appropriate for our committee to look at.

I'm sure my colleagues have comments on the amendment. I'm beginning to see from these two pieces of important information that what we probably actually need is a motion that allows this committee to undertake a study into misinformation and disinformation writ large, particularly at a time that is so troubling after the Hamas terrorist attacks. We now see the loss of civilian life in Gaza because of IDF bombing. This is a major concern to all Canadians, and we need to get good information.

It's fair to say that the CBC has done an exemplary job. It has been extraordinary. Its journalists have often laid their lives on the line, and continue to do so. An attack on the CBC and its independence is inappropriate. The fact that we have the president of the CBC coming forward means that Mrs. Thomas' original motion is kind of moot; we already have the CBC coming before us.

I think this committee should absolutely take on the broader issues of disinformation. I'm particularly interested in the comments from my colleagues to see what direction we should take. I'm beginning to think that my subamendment isn't the most appropriate way of doing that, given the surprising disinformation of foreign interference used by the conservative infrastructure and by Meta's appalling actions in fomenting and amplifying disinformation through the course of the last few weeks.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

I have a point of order.