Canadian Heritage Committee on Oct. 31st, 2023

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Martin Champoux]

I can assure you, Ms. Gladu, that you're next on the list. Thank you.

Go ahead, Mrs. Thomas.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Thank you, Chair. I appreciate that.

Thank you to the committee. Interestingly enough, that conversation and little charade that was pulled off there by the NDP member, Mr. Julian, took almost eight minutes. I was just about ready to wrap up my comments at six minutes. Again, let the record show that the frustration taking place at this committee is at the hands of the NDP member.

I came forward with a very straightforward motion asking for Ms. Tait to appear here for three hours so that we would have sufficient time to be able to ask her questions with regard to her mandate as the CEO of the CBC. That is my question. I'm further outlining a few, a very few, of the concerns that I have with regard to the CBC and with what I would say is their biased coverage with regard to the war in Gaza. Of course, there are many other topics that we would wish to ask her about as well.

At the end of the day, it comes down to two words. Ms. Tait has said that the CBC is committed to telling the “truth”, and Ms. Tait has said that it is important to restore “trust” in journalism. The CBC has not told the truth in many of its articles that it has released. In particular, one comes to mind with regard to the war in Gaza. With regard to the second thing, that of trust, she is right that the Canadian public does deserve the restoration of trust. That will take place when the CBC refuses to continue to perpetuate its biased coverage, actually looks at multiple sources and covers the news from multiple angles.

We'll give her the opportunity to answer questions in this regard when she comes on Thursday. We would ask that it be three hours long.

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Martin Champoux]

Thank you, Mrs. Thomas.

Ms. Gladu, you have the floor.

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'll be brief.

We originally were calling her for an hour. It's simply not enough time. I am concerned that they continue not to call Hamas “terrorists”, even though they're listed as an organization. I'm concerned about the false reporting that the Israel Defense Forces bombed a hospital when in fact that didn't happen, and there's been no retraction. I would like to ask questions of Ms. Tait about the many reports that have been done, the surveys and summaries, stating that the CBC is partisan or left-leaning. Finally, I want to talk about how the CBC is not going to interfere in the next election by not suing the Conservative Party in the middle of a federal election.

Those are the questions I'm looking for. We're going to need three hours. I do support this motion.

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Martin Champoux]

Thank you, Ms. Gladu.

Mr. Waugh, you have the floor.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

Thank you, Chair. It's nice to see you in the chair today. I'm sorry I can't be with you in person.

I agree with both the members who have spoken about the head of the CBC coming for three hours on Thursday, if possible.

I'm also concerned with the recent reports that CBC News is investigating claims of indigenous identity. The latest is Buffy Sainte-Marie. It has rippled through my province, including the Piapot reserve, which she...has grown up. Brodie Fenlon of the CBC posted the reason that CBC News is starting to investigate indigenous identity. This is a new facet that we would like the head of the CBC to comment on. I believe this is the third investigation done by the CBC, one by Geoff Leo out of Regina and one or two out of Saskatoon recently. I just want to know if, as I see it, they are the only organization in this country investigating claims of indigenous identity.

I would support the motion to get Catherine Tait to committee for up to three hours.

Thank you very much.

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Martin Champoux]

Thank you, Mr. Waugh.

Go ahead, Mr. Noormohamed.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I, like Mr. Julian, find it regrettable that we are wasting Mr. Bélisle's time, but here we are.

I think it's important to remember that Ms. Tait is, indeed, coming on Thursday. It's nice that everybody in the room has now acknowledged that indeed she is coming on Thursday. The clerk has indicated that she has certainly reached out to see what her availability is, but we have no idea what Ms. Tait's answers to the questions that she's going to be asked will be. I'm assuming that members will treat her with a respectful approach and that, at the end of that meeting, if people are not satisfied, we will have the option to bring forth a motion to bring her back if that is what we need to do.

I must confess that I am troubled by the ongoing claims or assertions—whatever we want to call them—and that people are trying to get Canadians to believe that somehow the CBC is on the side of terrorism and that there are those who have decided that it is okay for the government to dictate to journalists and the CBC what they should be saying, etc. I think we should be very careful and mindful of the fact that we live in a country where the independence of the media and the freedom of the press are critical. I shudder to think about what a Conservative government might do in dictating the terms of what journalists should and should not be allowed to cover, of what is news and what isn't. I'm not really interested in living in an Orwellian world like that. I think it's really important for us to ensure that we do everything we can in this committee to recognize, preserve, protect and indeed defend the independence of the CBC and Radio-Canada and to stop this ongoing demeaning of the work they do and of the journalists who put themselves in harm's way to provide Canadians with news. We don't have to agree with what they say or how they say it, but I think we have to agree that their independence is paramount.

It is important for Canadians from coast to coast to coast to see this committee as much as possible standing up for the independence of journalism and standing up for the rights and the protections of journalists to do the important work that we need them to do in this country from coast to coast to coast and indeed around the world.

I look forward to having discussions about this. Indeed I think it is important for us to have conversations about misinformation and conversations about the way in which it can mislead Canadians and the implications about that for the independent, fantastic journalism that the CBC and other independent journalists provide, and about what that misinformation can do in terms of trust and the ease with which things can be misconstrued. I know there are bot farms across the world, whether they're in Egypt or Russia, that amplify misinformation.

I look forward to bringing forward a motion to this committee in not too distant a future, whereby we will actually have the opportunity to discuss openly the notion of misinformation and disinformation and the impact of that disinformation on public broadcasting, on journalism, on the lives of journalists, and indeed, on the way in which people see and understand one another, and the consequences of that misinformation.

The idea that we would bring someone or call someone onto the carpet—which is what I think my colleagues would really like to do with the head of the CBC—and demand that she carry the government's message is, I think, remarkable. I think it is remarkable, coming from a party that talks about gatekeepers, that somehow they would now like government to dictate the terms under which Canadians should understand what news and journalists are doing—

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

On a point of order, Chair, I would just ask that the honourable member watch his terminology and be very careful. If he's going to make accusations, he should make sure there is substance to them and that he's able to point to the facts. None of what he's slinging right now—the accusations—has actually taken place.

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Martin Champoux]

Thank you, Mrs. Thomas.

Please continue, Mr. Noormohamed.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

I will take no lessons from somebody who says that the CBC is on the side of terrorists. I think that is abhorrent and it puts journalists at risk. I certainly assume that is not the intent, but—my goodness—it certainly feels as though it is.

I think it is absolutely within the purview of Canadians and it is their right to demand and to question editorial decisions. That's what the ombudsman is for. That is why there is an ombudsman of the CBC. I just find it strange or troublesome that we, as politicians, would call journalists or those who represent journalists here to answer questions, to explain themselves and to explain their decisions.

I don't always like what I read in the media, Mr. Chair. I've had things written about me that I didn't like, but I don't attack those journalists because—do you know what?—they have the right to do what they do in this country. I don't always have to like what they say, but I will absolutely always defend their right to say it.

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Martin Champoux]

Thank you, Mr. Noormohamed.

You have the floor now, Mr. Shields.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

I call the question.

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Martin Champoux]

Mr. Shields, there are two speakers left on the list. We can't call the vote while there are speakers on the list.

Go ahead, Mr. Julian.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to quote Mrs. Thomas when she said a few weeks ago, I will make this committee “hell.” She is certainly proving that she is willing to do that. What I find disturbing about this isn't just that she is making the committee hell, yet again stopping the committee from doing its work, in this case with the National Gallery of Canada, an important cultural institution that is financed by the federal government, where we are unable now to ask questions of the new chief executive officer after what has been—

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

I have a point of order.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

—it's fair to say, a troubled period for the National Gallery.

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Martin Champoux]

You have a point of order, Mrs. Thomas.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Thank you.

We are absolutely able to proceed to questions. Mr. Julian is actually the only one standing between us and our ability to do that.

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Martin Champoux]

Go ahead, Mr. Julian.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

As you point out, that is not a point of order. After all of the false, dishonest comments that have just been made by Mrs. Thomas, it is important to be able to respond and set the record straight. First of all—

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

On a point of order, Chair, clearly the Speaker of the House has provided some clarification of the guidelines to keep the discourse...and one of them is to not imply that members are dishonest, which is what Mr. Julian just did. I find that offensive and would have him withdraw those comments.

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Martin Champoux]

Mr. Julian, will you withdraw your comments at Ms. Gladu's request?

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

As you know, Mr. Chair, we've seen this in question period from the Conservatives. They've made far worse comments. I think it is important to never say anything negative about the individual, but about the comments, absolutely.

What we see now is that the Conservatives, a few weeks ago, wanted to have Ms. Tait come forward and she is. Ms. Tait will be coming to committee on Thursday. Last week, it was for two hours that the Conservatives filibustered the committee. We were unable to ask questions of the CRTC, which is very important at this point, but the whole week was filibustered.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

I have a point of order. We've asked to bring the CBC head for three hours. That's what we should be talking about, Mr. Chair.

It's not appropriate for this member to be going back three or four weeks and talking about what Conservatives said. The motion was to bring the head of the CBC for three hours—yes or no?