Canadian Heritage Committee on Oct. 31st, 2023

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Mr. Chair, are you going to skip your turn as well?

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Martin Champoux]

Mr. Julian, there are over 18 minutes left in the meeting, since we have the room until 12:15, I believe. That means there are 28 minutes left for all the speakers to have their say.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Are you going to use your six minutes?

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Martin Champoux]

I may ask one or two questions, but I won't use the six minutes normally assigned to me.

Ms. Hepfner, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, also, to Mr. Bélisle for being with us today and for being so patient while we get to our questions.

I was telling you that my colleague, Mr. Coteau, and I are very familiar with the Art Gallery of Hamilton, which is very well served under the leadership of Shelley Falconer.

I was interested in your opening statement. You talked about moving the collection of the National Gallery beyond the boundaries of the museum that you're in charge of, so that people who may not have access to the national capital and may not be able to come to Ottawa can also enjoy some of the art that is in your collection.

Could you expand a bit about how you intend to do that?

[Jean-François Bélisle]

I think that's a very important question.

The National Gallery of Canada is the only art gallery, or museum, that has a national mandate as set out by the constitution of the gallery. It's extremely important that we make our collections accessible to Canadians from coast to coast to coast, including our productions, programming, expertise and everything we do.

A number of things have been tried over the past years. We have had touring exhibitions and joint projects. All of these things are great examples of what works and what doesn't work. Because we've tried so many things in our long almost 150-year history now, I feel confident that we will very quickly be able to bring our artworks to different art galleries, not only art galleries but artist-run centres, research institutions and universities, so that we may make the collection more accessible, as well as our expertise and programming.

I dream of a gallery that is active throughout the country every year, and not every five years, six years or 10 years. We already have a program called the national outreach program that is only starting up now. Well, it started a year and a half or two years ago now, but it is scaling up. I intend to scale it up very quickly to bring the National Gallery to every Canadian across the country.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Thank you.

Could you describe for us some of your other ideas about how to widen the audience of the National Gallery in order to bring in people who haven't been before, or who haven't felt that it speaks to them?

[Jean-François Bélisle]

That is also extremely important to me: to make sure the National Gallery is accessible to all Canadians. A great example of that is something we have been doing for a little while now, with the free Thursday nights. We actually advertise for these free Thursday nights throughout the Ottawa region in five different languages. Mixing the content of the exhibitions, the types of artists who are shown, the types of artwork that are shown and adapting the communications language around the exhibitions have already generated extraordinary results.

If you have a chance to come to the gallery on one of those free Thursday nights, it's a very large crowd. We're talking about close to 2,000 people coming to the gallery within a two-hour window. They are from all walks of life, all ages.

I think that is extremely important for us to maintain and to develop even further, and for us to adapt to our national program as well, to make sure that when we send artwork out, we're not simply sending a canvas and hoping for it to be well-received by people. It's to also put in the time, energy and money to make sure it's made as accessible as possible to everyone.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

You spoke about the plan to have more outreach across the country. What about internationally? Are there any ideas to maybe collaborate with galleries around the world? I might be biased, but I think there's a lot to be gained in sharing Canadian art with the world.

[Jean-François Bélisle]

For sure. That's something that is also part of our mandate, and I think it is extremely important. I personally came from living abroad for a good part of my life and looking at Canadian art from an international perspective. This is something that I'm extremely interested in and fascinated by.

Of course, the Canadian representation at the Venice Biennale every other year is sort of the pinnacle of that international outreach, but I think it needs to come together through partnerships with other galleries on a regular basis and touring exhibitions.

We are doing that. We have an exhibit right now in Berlin by a group of Canadian artists, General Idea, which is a tremendous success. It was shown in Amsterdam last year. These are the types of exhibitions that we build with other partners.

We're also working on an exhibition called Woven Histories about the history of textile art, which we co-produced with LACMA in Los Angeles, MoMA in New York and the national gallery in Washington. It's being shown in Los Angeles right now, and it will be shown in Ottawa next year.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Fantastic.

I have 30 seconds left. Maybe I'll just ask you whether you have anything else in, say, your five-year plan that you want to highlight for this committee.

[Jean-François Bélisle]

Another big priority for the coming years is building up in-house capacity to make sure we produce the best exhibitions, the best catalogues and the best research about Canadian art that we can. I think the National Gallery needs to be a locomotive for that type of content. I want to build that in-house capacity to make sure that we assume our leadership role on that front.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Thanks very much.

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Martin Champoux]

Thank you, Ms. Hepfner and Mr. Bélisle.

Under normal circumstances, it would now be the Bloc québécois' turn to speak, but I'm the only Bloc member on this committee. As I am chairing today, I'm going to request that my colleagues allow me to ask Mr. Bélisle a question, if that's all right with them. I'll take as little speaking time as possible, because I do indeed want to give my colleagues the time they need for their questions.

I am acquainted with Mr. Bélisle, because he was the director of the Joliette art museum, and we met a few times.

I and many others had been concerned in recent years over something that was happening at the National Gallery of Canada. I'm talking about the thrust or direction they were attempting to give to the gallery's mission, which was an exaggerated emphasis on equity, diversity and inclusion. I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth, but that's where the gallery was headed.

Mr. Bélisle, I'd like to know how you intend to guard against any ideological influence that might come from sources like politicians or a board of directors. I know that you are now here with a blank slate in front of you and that you intend to look to the future and do great things for the gallery, but you are no doubt aware of what's been happening in recent years. How do you intend to counter this kind of influence while you are heading the gallery?

[Jean-François Bélisle]

Thank you for your question, Mr. Chair.

As you mentioned, I haven't been at the head of the National Gallery of Canada for very long. That means that I cannot unfortunately talk about the past. On the other hand, I can talk about where we stand today and where we're headed.

The current transformation of museum institutions is not limited to the National Gallery of Canada. It's the whole milieu, around the world, which has been striving to better understand and rectify any historical preconceptions and prejudices. My view is that it's very important for any such adjustments to be effected in a positive and constructive manner.

Acknowledging the diversity of Canadians and Canadian artists is extremely important, but it needs to be done by accrual to, rather than subtraction from, what the gallery has been producing and exhibiting. The best way to do this is by making sure that decisions are made with the right people around the table and with solid representation from this diversity, both within and outside our institutions, and on our advisory committees. That's how we work in putting together our current teams, and in all the considerations that come into play with respect to acquiring works of art, programming exhibitions, and conducting community and educational projects.

The works of art should speak to us, not the institution. I believe this to be a very important concept. The National Gallery of Canada does not have an ideology. No ideology has ever been forced upon it, either internally or externally, whether politically or financially. I believe it's our duty at the gallery to breathe life into the works, and to explain them and contextualize them now and in the future.

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Martin Champoux]

Thank you, Mr. Bélisle.

Mr. Julian, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you so much, Monsieur Bélisle, for being here. I'm very sorry, on behalf of the committee, that you had another Conservative filibuster cut three-quarters of your speaking time. Hopefully we can have you back to answer more questions, hopefully at a time when there won't be hell in committee. I find it really unfortunate—

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Martin Champoux]

You have a point of order, Mr. Waugh.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

I am tired of this member. He went eight minutes in his filibuster leading to the vote. Would he stick to the topic? He has six minutes, so could he please question the National Gallery CEO in front of us. He has six minutes, Mr. Chair.

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Martin Champoux]

Thank you, Mr. Waugh.

Go ahead, Mr. Julian.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

It wasn't a point of order. The Conservatives have used up five of the eight minutes. I must say I find the harassment by the Conservatives a bit much today. It's really unfortunate.

Mr. Bélisle, you've done an enormous amount of work. You have an impressive background, particularly at the Musée d'art de Joliette. You've just become the head of a gallery that has experienced problems in terms of human resources and dismissals. It needs mentioning, because the general public is aware of it. There were concerns about morale in the institution.

What have you done from the human resources standpoint to begin restoring morale at an institution that is so important for the whole country?

[Jean-François Bélisle]

Thank you very much for your question.

As I was saying, I can't speak about the past, but since arriving here, my priority has been to listen to the teams so that I can understand what they were going through and what they had in mind, with a view to boosting team spirit.

Earlier on, I mentioned the importance of building the institution's internal capacities. That begins with individuals. My management style focuses on individuals, and it proved successful in Joliette. Since my appointment, I have accordingly spent an enormous amount of time meeting the National Gallery of Canada's teams, with a view to understanding what they think would work well or less well, and where improvements might be made, all with a view to continually improving our working relations and methods. It is already paying off, at least in terms of the overall atmosphere in the institution.

What I've been feeling from the very outset, and it's truly remarkable, is the strong desire for internal capacity-building and for developing outstanding projects that will put Canadian artists on the map from one end of the country to the other, as well as internationally. I think a management style that puts people first will enable us to build tomorrow's National Gallery of Canada.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you very much.

You talked about from one ocean to the other. I represent a B.C. riding. For most of my constituents, they will never have the opportunity to go to that extraordinary building conceived by Moshe Safdie. I'm interested because you mentioned in your initial remarks about transforming art at the local, national and international level. What kind of outreach does the National Gallery do and how do you perceive doing that in the years to come for the artists, for example, in British Columbia and for the public in British Columbia, who may never have access to cross the 5,000 kilometres to come to Ottawa? In many cases if they do come it's the trip of a lifetime.

How can you outreach to a country so vast so that the National Gallery has a pulse everywhere in the country?

[Jean-François Bélisle]

There are a lot of things that need to be done and there are steps to be followed along the way. I would not want a national gallery that comes down from Ottawa and goes into various parts of the country simply putting up artwork and saying, “This is what you need to look at.” What I want to build is a national gallery that is in touch with the local communities and local artists throughout the country to better understand what different cities and different provinces are interested in, need and require and how we can build something together.

What I have been doing since I started is that I've gone to British Columbia twice already and different parts of the country, and I have trips to all parts of the country scheduled for the next couple of months to meet the artists, to meet the stakeholders and to understand what the reality on the ground is in order to be able to include that reality into the future of the National Gallery.

The first step is to listen and to understand the diversity of the country, the geographical diversity, and to build a better plan. As I said earlier, there are wonderful examples in the past of touring exhibitions, of satellite spaces and of joint productions—and all of these things are on the table—but I want to decide with our local stakeholders across the country and local artists what the next best step is.