Canadian Heritage Committee on Oct. 31st, 2023

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Martin Champoux]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting No. 95 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage.

To begin with, I'd like to reassure the interpreters that I will make an effort to avoid any whimsical allusions, fatuous remarks and lame puns to make it as easy as possible for them to do their work of enabling everyone to follow our proceedings on their headsets, because I'm going to be speaking largely in French.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the Standing Orders. Members are attending both in person in the room, and remotely on the Zoom application.

While public health authorities and the Board of Internal Economy no longer require mask wearing indoors or on the precinct, masks and respirators are still excellent tools to prevent the spread of COVID‑19 and other respiratory diseases and their use is strongly encouraged.

I would like to take this opportunity to remind all participants and observers that screenshots or taking photos of your screen is not permitted.

Although this room is equipped with a powerful audio system, feedback events can occur. I therefore ask, as all meeting chairs do, for participants to exercise a high degree of caution for the protection of our interpreters. When handling the earpieces, especially when your microphone or your neighbor's microphone is turned on. An earpiece worn too close to your or someone else's microphone can be extremely harmful to our interpreters, and we need them.

The first hour of today's meeting will deal with the order in council appointment of Mr. Jean-François Bélisle to the position of Director of the National Gallery of Canada. He is with us today.

Welcome Mr. Bélisle. You will have an opportunity to speak and each party will then be able to ask you some questions, in accordance with a predetermined speaking order.

I' d like to tell all the participants that I've brought a little of my handiwork with me this morning. To let you know when there are only 30 seconds left, I'm going to raise this piece of cardboard, on which the number 30 shown is not for minutes, but seconds.

Mr. Bélisle, you have the floor for five minutes to give your opening address.

[Jean-François Bélisle, Director and Chief Executive Officer, National Gallery of Canada]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank you—and all committee members—for this opportunity to meet you. Today marks the 114th day since I joined the National Gallery of Canada as Director and CEO.

My journey is uniquely Canadian. It started here, extended globally, and refocused on the work I could do at home. Previously, I developed Plural, Canada's second-largest art fair, co‑founded the private art foundation Arsenal Contemporary Art, which has venues in Montreal, Toronto and New York City which is dedicated to helping Canadian contemporary artists reach wider national and international audiences.

I then joined the Musée d'Art de Joliette as Executive Director, Chief Curator and Director of Philanthropy. Over a seven-year period, we doubled in‑person visits to the museum and multiplied philanthropic donations by a factor of 20. We did so by leveraging the creativity, expertise and ambition of the curatorial, operational and administrative teams, by fostering a sense of community and belonging for the donors, volunteers and visitors who trusted us to deliver on our shared vision and by expanding our collection, which now has over 9,000 works spanning 5,000 years of visual art history, in an accessible physical and virtual environment.

Joining the National Gallery of Canada represents an exceptional opportunity. We have an extraordinary team of curatorial and administrative staff whose commitment to building, sharing and preserving a collection that benefits all Canadians is unfailing. We collaborate with volunteers, donors and partners from across Canada whose ambitions for the gallery are limitless.

The value of these relationships was felt most intensely during the pandemic. Fiscal 2022-23 began as the world emerged from COVID-19. Last year, total attendance at the gallery was 279,000—up 68% from the year before—and revenues from operations were up by 81% to $7.7 million. Most importantly, the gallery could not have survived that test without the support of the government and Parliament.

The National Gallery of Canada Foundation, as well as our distinguished patrons and corporate partners, also made extremely generous contributions, including art donations valued at $11.1 million, helping us to further enhance the collection.

Building from these successes, I intend to focus on three key points that will all be articulated through art.

First, we put at the centre of everything we do meaningful and collaborative relationships with our employees, visitors, donors, volunteers, community partners and stakeholders. We are at our strongest when we act as a platform to pursue our collective ambitions as a community of shared interests.

Second, we want the gallery to remain a place where the collections, the exhibitions and the experiences that we facilitate are the vehicle for diversity, dialogue and inclusiveness. We’re going to make sure that artwork, rather than corporate policies, does the talking.

Finally, we need to keep our strategic focus on transforming the gallery into a modern institution that helps Canadian artists from each of our diverse communities find their voices in local, national and international conversations. We’ll do this by expanding our collection and by building partnerships that help our exhibitions reach galleries, museums and artist-run centres across the country. We’ll also build the gallery of tomorrow by digitizing our collections and fostering online communities so that Canadians anywhere can enjoy our offerings any time.

I'm confident we will succeed. I encourage you to look to our fall programming for signs of what is still to come. From the 2023 Sobey Art Awards, our new “Riopelle: Crossroads in Time” centenary retrospective, our forthcoming “Humour and Horror” exhibition of indigenous artist Nick Sikkuark's work, to the Governor General's Awards in Visual and Media Arts, the Gallery will be the hub of enlightening, lively and inclusive dialogue about the role of art in shaping the Canada we know and love.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Martin Champoux]

Thank you very much, Mr. Bélisle. Congratulations for finishing with 40 seconds to spare in your allotted time.

We are now going to move to the round of questions.

Mrs. Thomas, of the Conservative Party, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for taking the time to come today and to answer important questions for us. My colleagues and I do have important questions to ask.

However, I need to move a motion at this time, first and foremost. I move:

That the President of the CBC, Catherine Tait appear before committee for a total of three hours on Thursday November 2, 2023.

I believe that everyone has received this motion. The clerk sent it out. However, I'm happy to pause at this time should anything else need to happen administratively before I speak to it.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

I have a point of order.

I find this very disrespectful to our witness. Mrs. Thomas has the opportunity at the end. That's normally when motions are moved. We have questions for the director of the National Gallery and—

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Martin Champoux]

Mr. Julian, I understand what you're saying, which has more to do with the debate. Mrs. Thomas moved her motion within the specified time and she can use her time to speak to her motion.

Go ahead, Mrs. Thomas.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have no intention of filibustering this meeting. I do have the intention of speaking to my motion and then allowing it to come to a vote. Let it be known that, if this meeting is frustrated in any way beyond that, it is because of Mr. Julian.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair—not to frustrate the meeting but just to ask the clerk a question.

Do we even know if Ms. Tait is available for anything beyond the prescribed time? Have we reached out to her about beyond the prescribed time for Thursday, based on the language in the motion? Also, do we have resources to go longer—just so we can manage our own expectations accordingly?

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Martin Champoux]

Could you answer the questions, Madam Clerk?

[The Clerk of the Committee, Ms. Geneviève Desjardins]

For the resources, that is a good question.

Should the motion pass, I would request the additional time. Regarding Ms. Tait's availability, I asked and she has a meeting and needs to leave at 9:30; however, should a motion be passed, that doesn't mean she wouldn't change that depending on what the committee decides.

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Martin Champoux]

You have the floor, Mrs. Thomas.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Chair, it has been pointed out many times by my NDP colleague that Ms. Tait is coming for one hour on Thursday. At this committee meeting, she will be answering questions with regard to her role as the CEO of the CBC, where her contract has been renewed until 2025. Of course, there are many important questions that we have for her when she comes. Many of those have been brought up over the last number of days, and there have been a few attempts to ask for additional time.

There is currently a Bloc motion that has been tabled asking for additional time with the CEO of the CBC, Ms. Tait, and now this is a Conservative motion that is coming forward. I think it is clear that there is a hunger or an appetite to have additional time with Ms. Tait.

Let me briefly outline why it is so important and why I would be requesting the support of my colleagues at this table.

Within the CBC mission and principles that they outline, there are words like “public interest”, “reflect diversity”, “protect our independence”, “act responsibly” and “be accountable”. These types of phrases are used. Further to that, under their principles, it states the following words: accuracy, fairness, balance, impartiality and integrity.

I want to talk about what is specifically going on right now.

Of course, we have many questions for Ms. Tait having to do with her entire mandate since 2018. Right now, there is a war taking place in Gaza, and the CBC has determined to cover it from one angle. Most recently, they put out a headline that was entirely false in nature, where they readily accepted Hamas as their sole source of information and then released that in an article.

This is an organization, a public broadcaster, that receives $1.4 billion from taxpayers, and they commit to a principle of accuracy. They say, “We seek out the truth in all matters of public interest.” I beg to differ. They took Hamas's word and spread it as if it were fact. There was no second source consulted for this particular article. I would raise issue with this statement. They do not, in fact, seek the truth.

I have very important questions for Ms. Tait, as I am sure many people at this committee do. To expect us to get through all those questions on behalf of Canadians within one hour is simply expecting the impossible. In order to be able to ask the questions that need to be asked and to be able to get to the bottom of some very important issues, we do need the opportunity to have additional time with her.

The request is for three hours. Again, it's to give her the opportunity to speak to not only the false headline that was put out but also to the decision that was made by the CBC to refuse to refer to Hamas as a terrorist organization. It has been declared by the Canadian government to be a terrorist organization since 2002—more than 20 years.

Again, Ms. Tait, as the CEO of this organization, a public broadcaster, is the only one who needs to answer for this.

I could go on and on. There are, of course—

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Martin Champoux]

Go ahead, Mr. Julian.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Mr. Chair, I took note what you told me earlier when I raised a point of order. In view of that, I would point out that the member has exceeded the six minutes allotted to her. I would therefore request that you move on to the next person on the list for the round of questions, who happens to be a Liberal MP.

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Martin Champoux]

We are debating the motion, Mr. Julian, which means that the six minutes of speaking time do not apply.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

I am appealing your decision, Mr. Chair. We had already approved today's agenda, which was to receive Mr. Bélisle, the Director and CEO of the National Gallery of Canada. To be sure, Mrs. Thomas is entitled to speak about whatever she wants during her allotted speaking time of six minutes. Nevertheless, we have questions to ask the National Gallery of Canada representative.

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Martin Champoux]

As Mr. Julian is appealing my decision to allow the committee to debate Mrs. Thomas's motion, we must immediately vote on upholding my decision. I would first like to consult the clerk. I would ask the committee for a brief pause.

Mrs. Thomas, the standing order is clear on the fact that when a chair's decision is challenged, one cannot debate it, even if the decision is upheld. In such a context, one must immediately proceed to a vote. As you know, we can't debate a challenge of a chair's decision.

I am accordingly asking the committee to vote on the motion to uphold the chair's decision. I am giving the floor to our clerk.

Mr. Noormohamed, I can see that you wish to intervene, but we have a vote and, unfortunately, can't debate it at this time. I am therefore asking you to postpone your comment or question until after the vote.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

I just want to comment on the procedure.

I'll summarize. A decision was made and it's possible to challenge the chair's decision. My question is the following: if we proceed to a vote on the motion—as soon as possible, because I believe it's important—how much time will we spend debating—

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Martin Champoux]

Mr. Noormohamed, we are debating a decision from the chair that has been challenged, even though I clearly explained two minutes ago that we couldn't do so.

As I explained earlier, the standing order allows Mrs. Thomas to continue to debate her motion. Mr. Julian has appealed this decision. My duty is therefore to vote on it. That's what we are going to do now and the vote will be on whether to uphold the chair's decision.

(Chair's decision upheld: yeas 7; nays 1)

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Martin Champoux]

Go ahead, Mr. Julian.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Having understood that the committee has upheld the chair's decision, I'm wondering whether we should suggest to Mr. Bélisle that he leave.

Parliamentary obstruction has occurred on other committees. Keeping witnesses in the room when there's obstruction—

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Martin Champoux]

I understand your suggestion, Mr. Julian. I can assure you that if I see that debate is becoming overly drawn out, which did not appear to be Mrs. Thomas's intention, I would ask that Mr. Bélisle be allowed to leave. For the time being, I think we can still expect discussion to be brief.

Ms. Gladu, do you have a point of order?

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Yes. Chair, on a point of order, I certainly think we can get through this quickly. Mrs. Thomas has clearly stated that she's not filibustering. I want a chance to speak to this. Then I have questions for this existing witness.

What I would say is that, technically speaking, when I use my “raise hand” function to get in line for speaking, any time there's any other dilatory vote or anything, this system is automatically taking my hand down.

I just wanted to be sure I wasn't removed from the original order.